The Indian/Chinese IQ puzzle

Vocabulary and math iq without geometry are the best 2 correlates of income. These 2 need to be measured first. Though most of the factory based jobs of the Chinese (requiring spatial IQ, not math) are blue collar low waged works I am not convinced and impressed much either from the Indian call-centers. Maybe the Chinese are getting prepared for hi-tech industries requiring spatial IQ of the future. So they are learning. The people working in the call centers are just very ordinary and won’t need any kind of graduation or certificate. Sorry but it is a very simple job. 10.7 percent of the Indians are said to have learned English. Okay, they are using their English knowledge. That is just it, nothing else. The Chinese don’t know much English. They can’t do it but the Indians can! In the factory based jobs the Chinese might learn some know-how. It may be useful in the hi-tech jobs of the future. But I wonder what the Indians will learn from the call-centers and promote to! It is a useless job in every kind of measurement. But yes there is one advantage of it. It doesn’t require much area and energy which both are useful for a crowded country. India wouldn’t be able to set up factory based industries because they require energy demands and very large places. On the other hand the Chinese are making investments for the mines especially in Africa. Maybe for an energy crisis they are getting prepared. As an economist I have no doubt that there will be numerous books written in the future about the very different strategies of the Indians and the Chinese. They are playing the game from different perspectives. Time will show who is right. India has the advantage of English, judicial system and low energy demanding jobs. And India has one more advantage. Their jobs are very fixable. They can get rid of the call centers any time they want and set up another firm but the Chinese won’t be able to get rid of the large factories in a short time. The Indians praise individuality and they are better entrepreneurs. They have also better personality traits for business life. I guess the Indian strategy is better but I would like to learn the plans of the Chinese too. To me the Indians have some advantages other than IQ. The Chinese economy isn’t efficient enough due to the government interventions like giving bank credits to unprofitable areas. But this has nothing to do with IQ. In the future Tibet may get separated from China so there may be political problems preventing sustainable growth. Anyway except the high caste Indians (Brahmins) and Parsis I don’t believe that there are smart races in India. They make up less than 5 % of India. Finally India has one of the worst, hottest climates in the world. They won’t be able to attract foreign investment much. Anyway let’s wait and see what happens.

There are so many idiot explanations in this forum that I really don’t know where to begin from. First Marilyn Vos Savant had an IQ of 228 as a child but an IQ of 186 (!) as an adult. They are the same IQ,
The former one is ratio-IQ and the latter is deviation-IQ. See
http://hiqnews.megafoundation.org/Terman_Summary.htm
Second, chess is just a strategy game nothing to do with high IQ. So is the Japanese Go. But if one is take a strategy game for comparison (!), it would be much better to take Go as no computer is able to beat a good Go player yet as it is much more difficult to formulate in software. By the way Deeper Blue defeated Kasparov. More than 90 % of the Go players are East Asians.
One said that there were 4 Indian billionaires in top 10. He says this proves (!) that Indians are smarter. This is the result of the very bad allocation of income.
I believe that except the high caste Indians (Brahmins) and Parsis there are absolutely no smart races in India. You should read http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=7aa0c384b52dbbc77af9f49275ebc439 .India has 3 main advantages over China. Those are English, judicial system and especially the energy profile. Indians won’t need much energy as they make investments on information technologies.
As to creativity you should know that these three things are different.
IQ (verbal, math, spatial)
creative talent
creative personality (high conscientiousness, high emotional stability (or low neuroticism), high openness to experience)
First what is the difference between math and spatial ability? Spatial IQ (or Performance IQ) is visual reasoning with real 3-D objects (unlike chess). In chess the rules and moves are imaginary. The car repairers have jobs with low spatial IQ. The engineers have quiet high spatial IQ and finally the INVENTORS have the extreme levels of spatial IQ, not the scientists or mathematicians.  The conditions of today requires verbal and math IQ (especially math without geometry because they are different types of IQ) mostly because they are correlated most with income. In the historical evolution of IQ the Jews improved their verbal and math IQ but decreased their spatial IQ. Their scores were as follows in the Backman study.
Verbal: 107.8
Math: 109.7
Spatial IQ: 91.3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ashkenazi_Jews/Archive_1
(verbal comprehension factor - 107.8; English language – 99.5; mathematics – 109.7; visual reasoning (“a measure of reasoning with visual forms”) – 91.3)
While the Jews were being selected for their high math skills they were also being deselected for their low spatial skills. They had to sacrifice their spatial skills because it was a very EXPENSIVE for the brain and couldn’t provide income too much. Math IQ provided higher income and it was cheaper for the brain. Why? Because spatial IQ requires much space from the brain and much energy from the body. How did they find this? To understand this one should first learn what correlation is.

The height and weight correlate positively with each other. If you randomly select 100 persons of 1.70 m and 100 persons of 1.80 m you will see that on AVERAGE (not always) the persons in the 2nd group have also more weight. But if you select the tallest 100 persons and the fattest 100 persons on earth you will see that no one in the first group also exists in the 2nd group because being fat or tall requires high energy from the body so one can’t be the fattest and the tallest at the same time. Due to the law of the preservation of energy DNA has to sacrifice one of them to reach the extreme levels in the other one.
It goes the same for verbal and spatial IQ. They correlate positively. If you select 100 persons with 120 verbal IQ and 100 persons with 130 verbal IQ you will see that the 2nd group has also higher spatial IQ on average. But if you select the highest 100 persons in verbal IQ and the highest 100 persons with spatial IQ on earth you will see that no one in the first group also exists in the 2nd group because having high verbal IQ or having high spatial IQ requires high energy from the body so one can’t have the highest verbal IQ and the highest spatial IQ at the same time. Due to the law of the preservation of energy DNA has to sacrifice one of them to reach the extreme levels in the other one. That is why the highest spatial IQ scorers usually score just moderately high in verbal as when most of the brain is devoted to mechanical abilities almost there is not much space for verbal in the brain. So for the brain the VERBAL and the SPATIAL IQs are the MOST EXPENSIVE abilities. But though math IQ provides more income on average the highest math scorers don’t need to sacrifice their verbal IQs much as there are many people who score very high in both of them meaning that math IQ is much cheaper and efficient for the brain and body. Anyway though the Jews produced lots of scientists and mathematicians in the history they absolutely had no INVENTORS because science requires ABSTRACT reasoning but technology requires CONCRETE reasoning. That is the difference between math and spatial IQ. Almost one third of the math faculties in the US are Ashkenazim but they are fewer in the engineering departments. Caltech has the highest SAT scores and the engineering departments are full of the East Asians. Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla, Graham Bell, Faraday and many others were all whites as the Jews lacked spatial IQ related with INVENTIONS. The INVENTIONS require SPATIAL IQ and the DISCOVORIES require MATH IQ. The Jewish evolutional strategy was right as the mechanical abilities were irrelevant with earning money. Even in a very technological society like Japan you can’t employ everyone in hi-tech centers. It is limited. Anyway the average SPATIAL IQ of the East Asians is 110, matchless in the world. That is why the Japanese beat every nation in hi-tech patents. I am 100 percent sure that the Chinese will follow them as all the East Asians have the same IQ profile. Then you can ask why the East Asians didn’t have lots of inventors in the history. IQ, creative talent and creative personality are 3 different things. A super high IQ person can learn many things in a short time with little study but there is no guarantee that he will produce a new thesis with useful and original idea. These are different talents of the brain. Creative talent and high IQ correlate little with each other. The best creativity test is Torrance verbal test (if it is not studied before) and this test doesn’t and can’t measure INVENTIVE ability. It measures the creative in writing and science more (at least better than an IQ test if the test isn’t studied, ted.uconn.edu/nrcgt/reports/rbdm9202/rbdm9202.pdf ).
The Nobel Prize winners had many skills related with arts and writing (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/imagine/200903/arts-and-crafts-keys-scientific-creativity).
These artistic skills combined with high math IQ produces creative talent. I am not convinced that the East Asians lack any creative talent. First it was the opinion of the Torrance who created the best creativity test and spent 60 years working on creativity that the East Asians were in fact better in creative talent but worse in creative personality (high conscientiousness, high emotional stability or low neuroticism and high openness to experience). Secondly the Nobel Prize winners are overrepresented most in writing ability among all kinds of arts. There are almost no East Asian writers. One reason is the language barrier. They have very difficult languages for translation. Every symbol is a word. But the other reason is they are not interested in writing just like the author says they are not talkative. It is impossible that the East Asians lack writing ability as the Asians have the same essay writing scores in SAT with even a greater variance. If you exclude the southeast Asians it is clear that the East Asians will have higher mean averages than the whites http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/2006-total-group-writing-subscore-report.pdf).
The creativity process first begins with asking the right question (http://www.hyle.org/journal/issues/9-1/root-bernstein.htm). It is related with aesthetic taste. I don’t believe that the East Asians lack any aesthetic taste as writing ability already includes it.
Then what do they really lack? Possibly it is related with the personality skills. Just look at http://www.toddkshackelford.com/downloads/Schmitt-JCCP-2007.pdf .
You will see that the East Asian countries have lower C, lower N (or in other words higher emotional stability) and lower O. They also have lower variances in all these three personalities. The ones who took the questionnaires were all college undergraduates, the cream of the population. High conscientiousness is related with high ambition, persistence and perseverance. High emotional stability is related with self confidence. And finally high openness is related with curiosity and trying new things. These all more or less come to hard work in the end. The East Asians have good work ethics but when it comes to trying to find new discoveries they don’t work enough. That is exactly what the questionnaires say. In fact especially the Jews work much harder than the whites. See Israel scores where 40 percent of the population is Ashkenazim.
In PISA the East Asians have higher mean scores and higher variances in math at the same time meaning that the whites have no CHANCE at the high end of the math scale. They also have higher mean scores in science but lower variances. But still at the 6th sigma (one in a billion level) the East Asians will have higher means according to the variances. Now let’s come to the Nobel Prizes, Fields Medals and IMOs (International Math Olympiads). First IMO or Putnam in the US is question-answer types of test. They are related with IQ, not creativity. In creativity there is no question. You yourself ask the question and find the answer. Nobel Prizes or citations are related with creativity. Fields Medals are also related with creativity but sometimes they find solutions to unsolved problems like in the case of Perelman. Then it is yes like an IQ type of test. Just like with Nobel Prizes, who gets Fields Medal is quite political.  Who among many well-deserving candidates gets picked has to do with having networking connections among former Fields Medalists and other powerful folks in the field. Someone said that IMO wasn’t a good indicator. It is true but you should also know that the Fields Medals or even the contributions are not good indicators. First math is just a tool to understand physics better, not a GOAL. There is no need to make any kind of contribution to math unless engineering demands more.  First in the US there are only 2 High Schools teaching advanced problem solving techniques for the math Olympiads. They are Thomas Jefforson and Philips Exeter Academy. But one should know that the math taught in those schools for the Olympiads is useless anywhere. Even if you are a math genius you don’t need to learn stupid, useless techniques for absolutely nothing. In the US only the math undergraduates can take the Putnam test. 3500-4000 students take the test every year.  Most of them get zero as they don’t know these advanced techniques. In 6 hours they try to solve 12 problems. Even the top 5 (Putnam Fellows) can solve usually 8-11 of them. You can see the tests of the last year.
http://amc.maa.org/a-activities/a7-problems/putnam/-pdf/2011.pdf
Even if you are a genius solving these problems brings you nowhere because this level of math is absolutely UESELESS! Almost all of the Putnam fellows end up in the academy because there is no other place that they use their skills. Sometimes the investment firms hire them as quands. However there is no need to be a Putnam fellow to be a quand. It is always claimed that the East Asians are more homogeneous than the whites but the PISA math variances controvert this belief as it is higher. The East Asians are very good in IMOs (in fact they don’t need to prove anything). They are less good in Putnam but still good as the best students enter the engineering departments. IMOs or Putnam tests are useless anyway. The Indians are terrible both in IMO and Fields Medals but one can’t blame them. Though there is no research I guess the math mean scores of the high caste Indians and Parsis must be higher than the East Asians. Also it is worth seeing their variances. Winning Fields Medals or Nobel Prizes require creative talent plus creative personality (high C, low N and high O). The East Asians lack these 3 traits but I am not convinced that they lack creative talent for the so-called reasons I explained. The Indians on this forum really seem ridiculous to me. While accusing to the Chinese as being uncreative I really wonder what is the proof that they are creative. Okay, IMOs or even the Fields Medals are useless indicators but even contribution to math is not (or shouldn’t be) the perfect indicator of math creativity as most of math today can’t be used anywhere. But if the East Asians are uncreative (also in the sense of creative talent, not only in the sense of creative personality) the Indians are uncreative too. Just see the number of the laureates by country given except PEACE! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country
Australia: 11
Austria: 16
Belgium: 6
Canada: 18
France: 12
Germany: 96
Hungary: 11
India: 6
Luxembourg: 2
Netherlands: 18
Norway: 10
Poland: 10
Saint Lucia: 2
Sweden: 25
Trinidad Tobago: 1
UK: 106
US: 311
India with its population over 1.2 billion won just 6 Nobel Prizes and Swiss with only 7 millions won 22. The comparison is ridiculous and nonsense. The East Asians may lack creative talent but we shouldn’t be sure unless it is proved in creativity tests. But are the Indians really creative? On the other hand the ones who accuse the Chinese (or generally all the East Asians) of copying and imitating DON’T UNDERSTAND the difference between math and spatial IQ. A scientist can explain the nature of electric but can’t use it in equipment. Edison or Tesla could use it because they had extreme levels of spatial IQ. They are different abilities of the brain. By the mean average spatial IQ of 110 the Chinese and the other East Asians have no rivals in the world. If anything is invented in the West they will easily copy, imitate and improve it with little study like the Japanese did a lot in the past. The first original ideas about the robotics industry (one of the 6 big hi-tech industries) initialized in the US but they couldn’t improve as they didn’t have the spatial IQ of the Japanese. Having low spatial IQ is not a disadvantage as math ability correlates more with income but be sure that even if the other nations try to do the same thing they will immediately fail.

I made a mistake. France won 52 Nobel Prizes, not 12 with its 65 millions. India’s population is over 1.2 billion, maybe 1.6 billion. The high caste Indians (Brahmins) are said to be 4.3 percent of the population. So there is no doubt that there are over 50 millions of Brahmins and Parsis (the minimum expectation) and they are very wealthy (no excuse for not winning Nobel Prizes because (!) of poverty). Okay, then you can do the comparison. The Indians know how to accuse the Chinese of being uncreative then why could they win just 6 Nobel Prizes with a population far over 50 millions?

Finally there are certainly other factors playing roles in the growth of the countries. In fact if you go to the world fact book of CIA,
GDP per capita is:
3.700 $ for India
8.400 $ for China
11.600 $ for Brazil
16.700 $ for Russia.
The comparison of China and India is extremely ridiculous as if both countries have accomplished anything in the past. Despite the terrible inheritance of the socialism even Russia is much wealthier than both of them. When you read the comments you will see that most of them belong to Indians (yes, they are really talkative) and the Chinese don’t pay much attention to them. The Indians are trying to prove themselves and they are very prone to lying. They lie about almost everything. They send comments under a different name as if they are Americans and they are fans of the Indians’ math abilities. This fact is quite popular. Anyone who reads the Indian forums knows quite well that Indians always lie.

Wow, the Chinese have nice theory about Indians.
“Indians are talkative”, “Indians work in call centers”,etc etc.
Just how many Indians do you know? Most high educated indians don’t give a damn about call centers. Most indians who work in call centers do so because they need money to sustain their family and call centers are an easy way to earn money for those know a bit of english.
After being questioned about their creativity they come up with spatial IQ theory, as well as claiming that math is useless. LOL, I am not even going to waste my time on the usefulness of math and how many areas of higher math require high spatial intelligence.

Bringing Go is absolutely useless since very few Indians even heard about that game. But in east Asia they have popular games very similar to chess - such as shogi in Japan etc. If more than 90% of go players are from east-asia, it is only too obvious that the better players will be east-asians. I hope Indians can pick up this game soon. It is true that computers find it harder to beat humans in go. However, it also true that far less people and research and money have been spent on it. And everything that computers can do well is not necessarily outside strategy.

Inventions- I don’t know about Japanese inventions, but chinese inventions have a pretty bad rep in india. There are linguistic phrases in India like “that thing will not even last as long as a chinese toy”. Chinese toys look good. Very cute. But they simply don’t last. May be it’s because that they work so hard that they forget to concentrate.

Oh and MVS’s IQ- I actually heard that her entire IQ of 200+ was a fraud or misunderstanding. Her actual IQ was 132 in childhood and close to 180 in adulthood. So, she actually increased her IQ. In any case, whatever is true, the guy had a point. Plenty of people have changed their IQs. It is not fixed.

As for nobel prizes, it isn’t like China are doing any better than India.
Both India and China were very poor countries until recently.
China are now getting rich and developed fast, India slowly.
Brahmins are not beggars, but they are rarely very rich, although brahmins do tend to be much better educated than average. It’sa cultural thing. Parsis tend to be rich though. Also, not all high achieving Indians are brahmins or parsis. Some high achievers are other high castes including khatriyas ,or kayasthas, as they are called in some places. Some are not even hindu - for example, there is a Sikh Nobel winner in science in India.

However, I don’t agree that chinese have no creativity. I also don’t agree with the guy who said that IMO is not important. Indians don’t take it seriously, but I think Indians should take it seriously. IMO and original contributions are very different. Indeed, IMO type exams require memorizing a lot of techniques, but at least IMOs do a far better job of training creativity than do normal school mathematics.

The average IQ disparity between China and India are merely due to the average literacy rate, China 95.4 and India is 74. Indians will supersede Chinese when the literacy rate comes to a par.  India has a wide social, cultural and diversity than any other nation. The Indian population can be grouped in terms of the four traditional caste super-categories:1. Brahmin 2. Merchant, 3. Peasant,4. 4.1 Dalit 4.2 (“Untouchable”) 4.2 Scheduled Caste, 4.3 Muslims with North Indian vs South Indian geographical distinction.
Rec1Man’s latest summary table: Current IQ
Southern Brahmin, 1% @ 120 IQ,
Northern Brahmin, 4% @ 115 IQ,
Southern Merchant, 3% @ 110 IQ,
Northern Merchant, 12% @ 105 IQ,
Southern Peasant, 8% @ 93 IQ, Northern Peasant, 32% @ 88 IQ,
Muslim, 15% @ 75 iQ
Southern Dalit, 5% @ 75 IQ,
Northern Dalit, 20% @ 75IQ,
Avg = 86.10 IQ
Current Flynn for India is +7.8. Hypothesized Flynn effect for India in 21st Century:
Brahmins and merchants = +5, Peasants = +7,Muslims and Dalits = +10,The Flynn for Africa =+10, Sp all these relates to education and literacy as these above classes enjoyed a advantage in terms of education.
High End Indian IQ, Over 120 IQ = 55 million,
Over 130 IQ = 20 million,
Over 140 IQ = 5 million.
Please note that in every category south Indians have 5 points more though they are fairly from a warmer climate than north and hence the cold climate advantage is a myth.
Look at American Indians. As per Forbes, When statistical adjustments are used to convert the backward digit span results to full-scale IQ scores, Indian Americans place at about 112 on a bell-shaped IQ distribution, with white Americans at 100. 112 is the 79th percentile of the white distribution. For more context, consider that Ashkenazi Jews are a famously intelligent ethnic group, and their mean IQ is somewhere around 110. Digit span data (IQ equivalents) by U.S. immigrant group indicates Europe 99, Northeast Asia 106, Southeast Asia 104, India 112, sub-Saharan African 89, Mexico 82, Central America/Caribbean 83, South America 86. U.S Indians are clearly the latest and greatest “model.” In 2007 onwards, the median income of households headed by an Indian American was approximately $83,000, compared with $61,000 for East Asians and $55,000 for whites and is still growing. About 69% of Indian Americans age 25 and over have four-year college degrees, which dwarfs the rates of 51% and 30% achieved by East Asians and whites, respectively. Indian Americans are also less likely to be poor or in prison, compared with whites. The best comparison will be with an American contest as the data’s and environments are unbiased and everyone has more or less same opportunities. The IQ for Jews in Israel is way below than an American born Jew. In shot it is not the ethnic or the race or cold climate matters, The environment, education and efforts are the key points. Coming to Buddhism which was an offshoot of Hinduism which has six philosophical schools, Infact Advaitha uprooted Buddhisam from India as it failed on philosophical grounds. Shakyamuni was an Indian Aryan , there was no Nepal at that time. Nepalese are a new set of people , Indians mixed with Asians and hence the Shakya Clan was contaminated with the Asian blood because we do not see any high caliber monks from that clan anymore. The Highest form of Buddhism is Madyamika which was quite different from Buddha’s time. Sunyavada is the brain child of Nagarjuna who was a South Indian Brahmin. Bodhidarma another south Indian monk who was an Indian prince taught Zen Buddhism to these Chinese and even the Shaolin Kung Fu was attributed to him, Can any Asian deny it?.  Sanskrit is the proto Indo-European language and decimal / Binary systems are an Indian contribution to the world which is the foundation of Mathematics. So every race and every culture has their own share of contribution.

Rec1Man is just an ordinary commenter, not a scientist. His numbers of estimations mean simply nothing. The Indians in US are highly selected. They are not representative.

If you cant digest Rec1Man, just leave it. What about Richwine immigration IQ study with Indian IQ at 112, higher than the Jew, European, and East Asian? these too are mere estimations ? What you mean by Indians in US are highly selected, Jews and East Asians are not highly selected in the Richwine immigration IQ study? The stage for study should be in equal grounds, environments and unbiased. India’s literary rate and economy are much lesser than China is due to the corrupted Indian political/social system and hence the disparity in average IQ as it adversely effect educational opportunities equally to the public as a whole. China too had gone through that phase from corruption, poverty,illiteracy and average low IQ. If you disagree then you have to admit that the forefathers of Chinese people were dumb, so IQ too is tangible, a collective IQ has to do with society. The fact remains that East Asians are the most hard working people but not the highest intelligent people. The Average IQ of Jews in Israel are way below than an American Jew, even less than average, so which one is the right representation? if you take the IQ of Jews in Israel as the right representation as per your logic then Jews are below average in Intelligence, mind around 27 Nobel prices were attributed to Jews in science, almost all from outside Israel. Your logic is that the caliber of a warrior is independent of the weapons he use which is insane, if that is the case many should have been still using bows and arrows. Countries like UK, Australia etc are racial to a certain extend and hence not representative at the moment unlike US. It is evident from Queen being the head of the state even in this 21st century for these countries. By the way the highest IQ in the world is 225 for a south Indian, non brahmin girl, Vishalini of age 11, she will be in the Guinness book by the age of 14. The Indian state and central governments have failed to recognise and appreciate Vishalini’s extraordinary achievements yet. That is India….........................

The Indians in the US earn more than the Jews but UK Indians perform worse than the British people in UK. That is why US Indians aren’t representative. If the US Indians were representative then India would be the wealthiest country in the world. You also ask an IDIOT question about why Indians in the US were representative but not the other immigrants? The average income of India is only 3.700 $ but 16.700 for Russia. A smart Indian will have a lot of reasons to emigrate to US from India. But a smart Russian won’t have much reason to emigrate from Russia to US as Russia is already wealthy (at least much better from India). Of course the very high achievers from an extremely poor, over 1.2 billion population will be able to emigrate to US. Can you expect the same quality for French or German immigrants? France and Germany are already wealthy. Why would a smart person emigrate to US? It is a BIG SHAME for India to have an average income of 3.700 $. That already explains everything. Despite the British heritage they can manage to perform nothing. Only 40 percent of population in Israel is Ashkenazim and they are immigrants from East Europe. They are less intelligent than American Jews. The ones who can’t emigrate to US can immigrate to Israel. So Israel is their 2nd choice. High scorers in conscientiousness, emotional stability (or low neuroticism if reversed) and openness work harder. That is exactly what the questionnaires say. The whites (especially the Jews) work harder, not the East Asians.

Read my post first thoroughly and then comment wisely, it includes the UK representation, UK is racial that is why a lot of unrest there and UK is no more an economy. It seems you are a very stupid person, brush up your G.K, India is the 3rd largest Economy right now not due to these smart American Indians, which discredits your theory that the smart Indians has moved out. In fact the second category of Indians has moved out as the first need not to move out as they are well off, their average IQ is in 120 range and are predominantly rich. If you cant agree,  fine, even with 74% literacy rate and with these dumb Indians how can be India in the 3rd third place in GDP cutting even Japan?. Only US and China are above India. India is much smaller (1/3rd in size) than both US and China and even Russia where Russia is not a player at all now may be in the future. Leave EU as they are not a single nation. I consider Japan is the best economy since they are a very tiny nation. If you don’t know, India too has the 2nd fastest growth rate in the world. India has the potential to be no: 1, obviously which no one can predict as India has numerous internal issues unlike any other nation. You are foolishly debating on the per capital income, man India has one billion people and hence the per capital income is less. In that way Chinese pci is way below US, Japan and western countries. Hope you agree with population, pci will come down drastically, simple maths. pci is only an average income that doesn’t mean all Indians are poor. Qatar has the highest p.c.i , their average IQ is 78 only so? obviously the population is less. You are talking about British heritage, British screwed up India man, changed the history,divided India resulted in a non ending headache for India, the Pakistan, though there are some contribution which cannot be denied. India and China both has an ancient civilization which British lacked. The European civilization is just after renaissance, quite new apart from Greece and Rome. It is true that the Europeans did well and did a lot of contribution, though drawing the key elements from other cultures, maths from Indians and gun powder from Chinese. The intention was imperialism. I am not getting into the dark ages as everybody knows about it. Mind that India was the richest country in the world prior to the Arab Invasion , both in wealth and in knowledge. Foreign invasions only trashed India.  I agree the difference with poor and rich is more there in India which is due to the wide gap in education and the corrupted social and political systems which are being corrected, such time India has to stay in the 3rd slot. Learn more about India, before posting commands. I am least bothered about jews they are a smart bunch of people doing good w/o hurting others. My intention is not to boost Indians and sub-dude others, If anyone felt like that then it was not intentional. I am against these racial morons that is all. There are smart and dumb people in every culture and race , if you cant live with it then that is your problem, It is better for you to abstain from cracking your head here as it will not yield any fruitful results !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A smart Indian will have no reason to migrate to USA. Firstly, things are MUCH cheaper in India. And India provides greater privacy. A smart Indian can figure that much out. A rich person living in India is effectively the richest person on earth. He will have no reason to migrate unless he works for an American company. I mean who the hell prefers to live in a place where there are cameras all over your head? And who the hell prefers to live in a place where you have to pay Euro 2 to 4 just to go to the toilet? Living in these countries will also mean adopting a very different culture.

The ones who migrate to places like australia or UK are mostly poor but bold people desperate to improve their income. If these poor uneducated people can earn some money even as drivers or barbers and then send back even half the earning back to their family back in India, they effectively make their family back in India richer. Because $100 in these countries mean very little, but mean a LOT in India. It’s a sacrifice these people make for the sake of their family. Some others that go are businessmen and can make much more money in UK than India.

Is it really a surpise these people score a bit lower in IQ tests than average? LOL!

It seems that you are surely an Indian as you have proved with your idiot commands. But I am not a Chinese or an East Asian. Don’t try to teach me economics as I am already an economist. India is the 3rd economy due to its population, nothing else and China is the 2nd due to the same reason. They are not success stories. America is the 1st economy and its population is greater than 300 millions. But still they have a very high income per capita though some of the populations are blacks and Hispanics. The Indians perform only in America very well, not in the other countries which proves that the very best of the Indians migrated to US. Take the Brahmins and Parsees out nothing will be left in India. The growth rates high are because of the extremely low average income and cheap labor. If everything is cheaper then migrate to Sub-saharan African countries, they are cheaper there.

You are not an economist for sure,If you are then either you are stupid or racial. Now you are saying even China is not a success story, so you are not an economist for sure everyone even idiots know that the two most success full nations in terms of growth now is China and India and the whole world is taking about it. Being an economist how do you rate a country’s growth ? can you please highlight on these please?  Why only Indians, the best performing immigrants are US immigrants, take Jews , blacks, for that matter every ethnicity, that in US. The credit is for USA that is why we have a black president. Will this happen in UK , Canada , Australia ? I doubt. Brahmins are not the richest class in India and more over they are just 5%, parsis are 0.02%, which cant give an impact in such a big country. The real factor is literacy is growing in India and other classes are getting smarter, Brahmins are no more a competition in even getting into premium schools. Those days are gone.  Why Iran is not a success full country from where the parses came ? Ethnicity changed after migrating to India ? Did they mixed with Indians ? So then India has to be credited for that in either way. They landed up in Gujarat and in Mumbai the most industrialized states in India, They resorted to business and became successful being a closed community, In fact just 2 big corporates are parses and thus they got the name, which is in fact is a pie compared to the vast Indian economy. India welcomes everybody, that is how the British crooks came in pretending for business ( East India company) and screwed up India. As I said India is a very complicated country you cannot analyse the Indian situation being an outsider by just presuming things Like you. I studied and lived exclusively with Chinese , Indians and Americans in their respective countries and I have a better picture than you. racialism and fanaticism blinds even intelligent people and may act as idiots that is what happened to you. First digests the fact that everybody is born with a brain and from the same factory the nature so the technology is same, the difference is in the environments in a social level and efforts in a personal level that is what makes people different. Then coming to genius is just around 1% and is evenly distributed hence leave it. Use your academic skills in a better way as both of us are wasting our time here. I know you will come up with some stupid argument, So I am retiring and let it be that way if we have a difference.

There are 5 goals for an economist which one of them is growth rate. However poor countries always have more advantage because of cheaper labor. When Japan was a very poor country in the 1960’s they had this advantage and managed to grow at a rate of 10 % per year. But when it became a wealthy country in the 90’s it managed to grow at only 1.5 rate per year because the labor was too expensive. Though there are many mistakes even the idiot writers of Wikipedia know this fact. Like I said don’t teach me my profession. India’s income per capita is just 3.700 $. Even if there is no population growth (which is impossible) in India and there is 10 % of growth rate theoretically (which is another impossible situation) 10 years later the average income will be 9.597 $ which means simply NOTHING! That is math!

3.700
4.070
4.477
4.925
5.417
5.959
6.555
7.210
7.931
8.724
9.597

If India or China manages to have the same income per capita of Russia or even Brazil one day (I don’t believe) they will no longer be able to have these growth rates like Japan couldn’t do the same thing what it did in the 60’s. Do a favor to me and don’t waste my time trying to prove your idiot comments. It is clear that you don’t understand anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Japan

With average growth rates of 10% in the 1960s, 5% in the 1970s, and 4% in the 1980s, Japan was able to establish and maintain itself as the world’s second largest economy from 1968 until 2010, when it was supplanted by the People’s Republic of China.

Growth in Japan throughout the 1990s at 1.5% was slower than growth in other major developed economies.

How can I talk to a person who cant understand the pci and the population correlation. U.K and Russia has a comparable GDP but why the pci of Russia is no where near to UK?. Cheap labor is only one of the factors, or else Africa should have been growing the most. The population growth of India will turn out to be a boon as India will be still young in the work force and will maintain more or less the same growth in the long run with a bonus of a huge domestic market, even China will be handicapped in a later stage as they have restricted the population growth. Japan’s growth was mainly due to innovation and competitive pricing. India and China were poor due to the stupid Soviet model. Anyway I have no time to waste further, have better work to do.

If indian strategy is really not east-asian like he claims, i wonder what motivation he has in expressing such comments against india.
Looks like someone is suffering from inferiority complex and insecurity(,even if he or she is not going to admit it).
Another possibility is that he is simply a chinese trying to use a proxy.

You are absolutely right “Curious Indian”.

I think curious Indian and Astro are the same person attacking my personality because of having the disability to prove anything wrong in my comments. Sure, that is exactly the dirty, disgusting Indian style, writing comments under a different name. Anyone who reads all the comments in this web site will see how the Indians have inferiority complex and are trying to prove themselves. You are not in a situation to judge my economical comments as you are a fool. Just show my comments to an economist he will agree that I am an economist and show him your comments he will say that you are an idiot. What motivation should I have? Not all people need to be Chinese or East Asian to tell the truth (like you think so) if you believe in justice, fair, honesty. Look at the link below who (possibly an American, surely not a Chinese) claims to be a neuroscientist. Though there are some points that I don’t agree with Linda (that writing requires less g than chess) I can understand what she means by the reaction time. In solving a math problem the reaction time may be important but the other point which she forgets is that IQ doesn’t need to be limited with just understanding. Vocabulary which is said to be the best correlating subtest according to factor analysis method isn’t limited with understanding. It is also related with memory. A person with good vocabulary skills can learn the same word with having heard of 3 times while a normal person learns it with 10 times. The vocabulary skills of nations or races (whites and East Asians) can be estimated with the extrapolation method. You measure the math score of each nation and guess their vocabulary scores with how much they are better or worse in vocabulary compared to math in sd=15. Though there isn’t a research like this Lynn believes that the whites have better verbal skills.

By the way if China or India manages to have a mean income of 20.000 $ decades later (surely never ever) they will need personality traits other than IQ. When the countries get wealthier IQ plays less role. The wealthiest state of the US, California has a mean IQ of just 100 (http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQ-States.htm#P) but it is the most creative economy. That is why 60 percent of the population is democrat.

http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/05/hi-iq-not-needed-for-tennis-but-needed-for-writing.html
If you define true genius as creative achievement you might be right (although the Chinese made many of the most important inventions & discoveries long before whites), but creativity invokes personality traits other than intelligence.
But when it comes to pure intelligence, whites are no match for the East Asians. If you made a list of the 100 most intelligent people in the world, as measured by pure raw brain power and neural efficiency, information processing speed; all 100 of them would be East Asians. Above a certain IQ, whites vanish completely, and it’s ONLY East Asians. Even Ashkenazi vanish, because they are still of caucasoid stock so there are limits to how smart they can get.
Similarly, the 100 best athletes in the world would all be black.
Linda, who is the East Asian (EA) James Joyce? Mozart? Euler?”
Oh, I agree that the most creative geniuses in history would all be Caucasoid, but that’s because creativity achievement, even in fields as g loaded as math & science, depends on a lot more than just high IQ. It also depends on certain personality traits and neurological conditions that are present in whites and especially blacks, but are less common as you move to the top of the evolutionary ladder: East Asians.
But if you’re talking pure intelligence, the most intelligent people of all time were all East Asians. Every single one of them. In laboratory experiments using the most state of the art chronometric equipment, with performance measured in milliseconds, I’ve found that there are physical limits to what even the sharpest Caucasoid brain can do. And I’ve tested some of the most profoundly gifted caucasoids from all over the world. The East Asian brain by contrast is new and improved (i.e. recently evolved as East Asians are a young race(see Rushton)) and are capable of processing information far more efficiently. It’s got to the point where I wont even test you unless your East Asian because I know it’s a waste of my time.

nicknguyen,

I have seen the same thing in Vietnam. Having travelled through vietnam in 1997, what i saw was a ethnically backward people (IQ tests prove this, even though vietnam’s iq levels are distorted by the Lyn study and given the same rating after averaging that of Japan etc). There was filth everywhere (given vietnam has a relatively lower population that India and China, I was execting a much more cleaner and advanced society. What I saw was filthy street, woman peeing and spitting on side streets and a society that although it talks about being like Singapore and other SE asian countries, was far far far behind.

The fact is as country deveops economically, so does their general level of well being and IQ level. China’s IQ tested during the Mao period for example would be much lower than it is now….

Rooboy

Your are wrong, Astro and Curious Indian are different. I am not so cheap to provoke someone. I am only defending the truth. Your long post doesn’t make any sense. East Asians has only 3rd place in Richwine study after Indians and Jews which stands intact irrespective of which ever way you bark. East Asians are the most Intelligent people has no support other than your personal views which are obviously biased as everybody knew it and no one will take it seriously. After a certain IQ the whites vanish ? don’t make an ass yourself. All most all the scientific inventions are from whites.  Even your early posts reflects the maximum number of Nobel prices won by whites in science and there by you are contradicting your own statement, so please revise your own post before commenting which will make you an ass again. There is no evolutionary pressure for brain to evolve as before, like primitive men, Information assimilation has already superseded the natural evolution, 1-100 part. Moreover humans are not even using 10% of the brain capacity and hence a lot of room yet to be resorted. Having said this, don’t bring up another argument as “we Chinese people are using the most brain capacity from the rest 90%”!!!!!. Recent studies are showing that even the brain size is shrinking which again discredits your evolutionary theory, probably it is a devolution rather than an evolution. Most of the computational power has been shared by computers now could be another reason. It is sad that now you are trying to disprove the correlation of IQ and intelligence, which is only showing your desperation. You couldn’t keep up the debate. You could not reply to my post on April 02, 2012, 07:58 PM”, which I can understand now. So why cant you better give up, racial morns has no place in a modern society!!!!!!!!!

I answered about the Richwine study in details before but as you are a fool you can’t understand. Read it several times, not once! Lynn measured India as 81 and that was not only one measure. It is even lower than the American blacks. Average income of India supports his study very well. That is exactly what India deserves. No one would care about India if there were not few smart races due to the caste system. The long post about the East Asians belongs to a neuroscientist, not to me. Read the whole link. Inventions and discoveries require other personal traits, not just high IQ. I won’t repeat what I wrote before because you don’t understand. You probably categorize Indians also as whites. They may be closer to the whites than the East Asians but they are absolutely not whites. Arabs, Iranians aren’t whites either! India’s only 6 Nobel Prizes except Peace prove (!) how creative (!) Indians are! I think as being a white (!) you want to share the victory of the whites’ Nobel Prizes against the East Asians. The Arabs or Iranians could also do the same thing assuming themselves as whites. Don’t worry the Europeans or Americans don’t care about the Indians, Arabs, Iranians, Pakistani etc. they are all in the low IQ category. The claim that humans don’t use their brains in the max capacity is only a myth to delude idiots like you. Evolution never produces anything which the body doesn’t use. If anything isn’t needed anymore as the environmental conditions change it disappears again with evolution by time. We have unused tooth, they will disappear in the future. I think the Indians are happy with their average income of only 3.700 $! It is extremely low but sufficient to make them happy.))) someone said ‘the Indians do not use toilet paper! They use their bare hands too for wiping their a$$! If you see a basin of water in front of an India toilet, stay away!’ yes, they don’t use as they have no Money but stil they are happy. A french, German, British or an american would hate living with only 20.000 $ but Indians are stil happy with only 3.700 $ because they are absolutely simple people! It is not worth wasting time with your idiot questions because you couldn’t understand my earlier answers before as you are a fool.