The Indian/Chinese IQ puzzle

关于中国人、印度人智商长达10年的争论
Posted by jonjayray

Both India and China are countries that have had the sort of moderate contact with the rest of Eurasia that their position at two extremities of Asia would lead one to expect.  Both India and China have had their own sophisticated civilizations for at least two thousand years.  The Chinese invented such things as gunpowder and printing.  The Indians invented the so-called “Arabic” numerals that we use to this day and one of their religions (Buddhism) has been enormously influential outside their own borders.  Both Indians and Chinese do extremely well economically outside their home countries.  To me this is a picture of two generally intelligent populations.  Yet the average IQ score for the two differs markedy.  Chinese score somewhat above the Western norm and Indians score markedly below it.  How come?[CN]

印度和中国都同欧亚大陆其他地区有着适当联系,他们都处于亚洲的两个端点。印度和中国都有至少2000年的古老文明。中国人发明了火药和印刷术。印度人发明了现在被广泛使用的阿拉伯数字,和具有广泛影响的佛教。印度人和中国人在国外在经济上都做得非常好。对我来说,这是两个非常聪明的群体。然而,两者的平均智商有显著差异。中国的分数比西方的标准高一些,印度的分数明显低于西方标准。怎么来的?

The usual explanation of IQ in terms of climate is straightforward.  India has a much warmer climate than China and the severe Northern Chinese winter has selected heavily for ability to think ahead and   intelligence generally.  Consonant with that, it is only Northern East Asians (the Han Chinese, the Koreans and the Japanese) that have the IQ advantage.  Southern East Asians (Filipinos, Malayans and Vietnamese)  are if anything slightly below the British/American norm.[CN]

一般解释为气候的原因。印度气候比中国温暖,中国北方的严寒有助提高智力。与之相符,只有东北亚的人(汉族、韩国、日本)才有较高的IQ.东南亚(菲律宾、马来西亚、越南等)略低于英美水平。

As a very criterion-oriented psychometrician, however, I am not really convinced by that explanation.  I know Indians very well and I have even  done social surveys in India.  And I cannot convince myself that Indians suffer any real disadvantage.  I am inclined to the view that the difference we see lies in the non-genetic causes of intelligence.  Since a third of intelligence is NOT genetically determined, environmental factors would be well able to explain the measured IQ differences between Indians and Chinese.[CN]

然而,作为一个标准化心理测量专家,我不真正认同这种解释。我知道印度人非常棒,我曾在印度做过社会考察。我不相信印度人有任何真正的不利。我倾向于差别来自于非遗传因素。智力有三分之一不是遗传因素决定的,而环境因素能很好的解释印度人和中国人智商测量的不同。

So what could be the environmental factors that differ?  Here we are as far as I can see entirely in the realm of speculation.  The difference that occurs to me is the legendary Chinese devotion to education—which goes back long before significant Western contact.  Even in the days of Marco Polo (Yes.  I know that the Marco Polo tale is probably a compilation from various sources) entry to the Imperial Chinese civil service was via examination.  India, by contrast, has nothing comparable.  There was some stress on education during the British Raj but the Raj  (or “Reich”, as the Germans would say)  had nearly complete control of India for not much more than  a hundred years (the Sepoy mutiny was in 1857).  What DOES characterize the Indians as far as I can see is an enormous devotion to chat.  The Indians are as talkative as the Chinese and Japanese are reserved.  So it always amuses me to see the different contributions that the Indians and Chinese are now making to the globalized economy.  The Chinese have become the workshop of the world and now supply all the widgets and gadgets that anyone could need.  Our supermarkets are full of their manufactures.  And what do the Indians export?  TALK!  They are the call-centre headquarters of the world!  How fitting![CN]

那么,什么样的环境因素呢?中国重视教育,在和西方建立联系之前就是这样。印度人在这方面没有可比之处,在英国几乎完全控制印度的100年间才有些改善。印度人最爱聊天,和中国人一样健谈,而中国人比较含蓄。因此看到印度和中国对全球经济的贡献时我总是想笑。中国已经变成世界工厂,供应任何的生活必需品。我们的超市都是他们的产品。而印度出口了什么呢?空话!他们是世界传呼中心!多合适!

And note that verbal ability is the core element in IQ.  If you want a quick index of IQ, vocabulary size is the best available shortcut measure.  So that fact too  militates against Indians really being dumb.

So what I think has happened is that the Indians have the depressed IQ scores that are characteristic of an overwhelmingly rural population (scores which rise with urbanization) but in China an equally rural population has overcome the rural handicap by an emphasis on education skills—and those skills help to maximize IQ scores.

The lower scores of the Southern East Asians are usually explaimed by pointing to a history of  interbreeding with pre-existing indigenous populations and I suspect that the Negritos (pygmies) are the main culprit there.  Filipino and Vietnamese women in particular are still often remarkably short by our standards.

国外网友评论 0人跟帖    47588人参与

razib
on Sun, 02 Jan 2005 04:36 | 1

jon,

one should focus on the populations of trinidad, guyana, mauritius and fiji for a representative of south asian IQ outside of south asian poverty, as these populations are drawn from the peasants of northern india by an large (rather than elites). what little i know suggests there is some improvement, but still well below the white median.[CN]

你们该重点放在特立尼达岛,圭亚那,毛里求斯还和斐济的人口上,这些人口代表了贫穷南亚的智力水平。这些人口大多由北印度的农民(而不是精英)组成,据我所知,现在有所改善了但还是处于白人平均智力水平之下。

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
John Ray
on Sun, 02 Jan 2005 06:50 | 2

Fiji would be interesting as they are quite prosperous there.[CN]

说到斐济就有意思了,那里挺繁华啊!

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
razib
on Sun, 02 Jan 2005 07:40 | 3

Fiji would be interesting as they are quite prosperous there[CN]

说到斐济就有意思了,那里挺繁华啊!

well…their industry is measured i *relative* terms. lynn & vanhanen’s book gives 84 as the IQ of fijian indians. about the same as native fijians. don’t ignore the possibility of a lot of substructure in the south asian population along any given vector….[CN]

这么说吧...对他们工业的评估是相对而言的,lynn和amp; vanhanen的书给出斐济印度人的IQ值为84,与当地的斐济土著差不多。无论基于什么矢量计算都不要忽略了南亚人口的下层结构的可能性。

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
John Ray
on Sun, 02 Jan 2005 10:49 | 4

RazibI have been into several Fijian Indian homes in my travels and, as you rightly say, their prosperity is relative. The homes concerned were overcrowded shacks by western standards. And outside Suva, the cities are very much like Indian ones. It does seem that expatriate Indians are decidedly limited by the population they live among—which is not surprising. But just about 100% of Fiji’s businessmen and professionals are Indians.[CN]

Razib,我旅游去过几次,到过几个斐济印度人的家,你说的在理,他们的富贵是相对的。照西方标准,他们的住房过分拥挤的。苏瓦之外,其他城市与印度人城市无异。看起来流放的印度人也的确被斐济土著果断限制了 - 这不奇怪,斐济人的生意人和教授100%是印度人

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
John Ray
on Sun, 02 Jan 2005 10:53 | 5

Another point: Indians are even the farmers in Fiji and farming (sugar) is still their major industry. So they are unusually rural for expat Indians. All the Fijians (Melanesians) do is catch fish, tend gardens and “work” for the government. Both groups are thoroughly pleasant people though.[CN]

还有一点:印度人在斐济还有当农民呢,农耕(制糖)还是他们的主要工业。在被流放的印度人中他们可算是非比寻常的乡下人了。所有的斐济人(美拉尼西亚人)都是干抓抓鱼啊,打理花园啊,为政府“服务”啊这些工作的。这两个群体都是乐天派。

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
josh
on Mon, 09 Jul 2007 21:59 | 6

Richard Lynn two books:[CN]

理查德·林 两本书

1. “IQ and Wealth of Nations:[CN]

1. 智商与国家财富

2 “IQ and Global Inequality” [CN]

2. 智商与全球不平等

These two books have good discussions of issue.[CN]

这两本书对这个问题都有深入的讨论。

With whites centered at 100 (one hundred).[CN]

白人智力居中:100分

Most of the world can be divided in five group.s[CN]

世界大致可分为5个智商群体

Jews @ 113 IQ. Al Einstein and others.[CN]

犹太人 113分 如:爱因斯坦和其他

East Asians @ 105 IQ[CN]

东亚人 105分

Euro-Whites @ 100 IQ[CN]

欧洲白人 100分

US blacks, Hispaics, Filipinos, Mexicans @ 85 IQ[CN]

美国黑人,西班牙人,菲律宾人,墨西哥人 85分

Indians in India @ 80-83 IQ[CN]

印度人 80-83分

Black Africans in Africa @ 70 IQ[CN]

非洲黑人 70分

Australian Aborinines @ 60 IQ[CN]

澳洲土著 60分

It’s the Truth. from over a 100 years of testing and data gathering.[CN]

这就是真相。100年的测试和数据收集得出的。

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
Irwin
on Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:23 | 7

I doubt if the East Indian IQ is 85-80.[CN]

我质疑东印度人智力只有80-85分.

I will rate them next to Jews, soewhere around 107-100[CN]

我会把他们排在犹太人之后,分数100-107

reasons:[CN]

原因

1. Most of the mathematics which we study today came from the Indians.[CN]

今天我们所学的数学大多来自印度人。

2. Indus valley civilization was far more advanced and superior to any other civilization in the world.[CN]

印度河流域文明比世界上任一文明都要更加先进更加久远

3. Have you heard about any east asian winning a nobel prize for breakthrough???[CN]

有听过哪一个东亚人取得重大突破获得诺贝尔奖么?

4. Indians have till now won Nobel Prize for breakthroughs[CN]

印度人现今都还有取得突破获得诺贝尔奖。

5. J.C. Bose was the real invebtor of Radio proved by the IEEE.[CN]

J.C. Bose 才是录音机的发明者(电气与电子工程师协会为证)

6. Most of the Doctors in US and UK are Indians and Doctors have an IQ somewhere around 100 else they cannot study medicine in the first place.[CN]

美国英国多数医生是印度人,IQ有100左右,不然不能优先学习医药行业。

7. Often I have seen the IQ tests and results are racially biased![CN]

我经常看到这种智力测试,结果往往带有种族偏见。

thanks[CN]

谢谢

Irwin , Moscow[CN]

欧文·莫斯克

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
James Bowery
on Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:44 | 8

Thank you, Professor Irwin Corey. Superior wisdom, from a superior mind.

谢谢欧文·科里教授。高人高见啊。

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
josh
on Tue, 09 Oct 2007 00:20 | 9

Jews @ 113 IQ. Al Einstein, Edward Teller, J Robert Oppenheimer, etc. 5 of the 10 Richest Americans are Jews. How come? How could 2% win 40% of the Nobel Prizes?[CN]

犹太人 113分 如爱因斯坦,爱德华·特勒,J 罗伯特 奥本海默等。 美国人中10个最富的人中就有5个是犹太人。怎么会这样? 2%的人口占了40%的诺贝尔奖?

East Asians @ 105-108 IQ[CN]

东亚人 105-108分

Euro-Whites @ 100 IQ[CN]

欧洲白人 100分

US blacks, Hispanics, Filipinos, Mexicans @ 85 IQ[CN]

美国黑人,西班牙人,菲律宾人,墨西哥人 85分

Indians in India @ 80-83 IQ[CN]

印度人 80-83分

Black Africans in Africa @ 70 IQ[CN]

非洲黑人 70分

Australian Aborinines @ 60 IQ[CN]

澳洲土著 60分

It’s the Truth. from over a 100 years of testing and data gathering.[CN]

这就是真相,100年的测试和数据收集得到。

These numbers are absoulutely True and correct.[CN]

这些数据确切无疑。

Ask yourself a simple question. How did present day India, Pakistan, Bangledash and Burma be part of the British Empire until 1947? [CN]

问你自己一个简单的问题:今天的印度,巴基斯坦,孟加拉国,缅甸为什么直至1947年还是英国领土的一部分?

How did the UK flag get to be on the flag of Australia and New Zealand? How did Africa get colonized from Egypt to South Africa? How did tiny UK conquer 1/4 of Earth land-space. [CN]

英国米字旗又是怎样挂到澳洲和新西兰去的?非洲从埃及到南非是怎样沦为殖民地的?小小英国是怎么占领地球1/4的陆地的?

How did 800 Spaniards conquered a million Aztecs in present-day Mexico. How did English and English, from two small nations get to be the world’s language. [CN]

800西班牙人又是怎样侵占阿芝特克人(今墨西哥人)的?英语又是怎么成为世界通用语言的?

It all about the Truth. Do not fear th Truth. Let’s accept and embrace the Truth.It all goes back to IQ (intelligence)[CN]

这就是真相。不要害怕真相。让我们接受它,勇敢面对。

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
Oliver Cromwell
on Tue, 09 Oct 2007 00:48 | 10

“Often I have seen the IQ tests and results are racially biased!”[CN]

我经常看到这种智力测试,结果往往都带有种族偏见。

This is a put-on, right?[CN]

这是个骗局,有木有?

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
Lurker
on Tue, 09 Oct 2007 02:00 | 11

Irwin mentions there being a lot of Indian docs in the UK - true.[CN]

欧文提到英国有很多印度人当医生 - 对的。

Dentists are far more likely to be white or Jewish, but far less non-whites are to be seen plying this trade.[CN]

牙医多数是白人或犹太人,非白人在这个行业就更少了。

Vets are always white, Ive never seen a non-white vet in the UK. Not always Brits but always Euro/White.[CN]

兽医也尽是白人,在英国还真没见过非白人兽医。当然不尽都是英国人,还有欧洲白人。

I mention these trades as I assume their entry requirements are not that dissimilar to docs.[CN]

我提到这些行业有考虑到他们的准入资格与医生没什么不同。

Im sure there is a story waiting to be told here but Im not quite sure what it is exactly.[CN]

我肯定这里边还有一些东西没讲出来,但具体是什么我不太确定。

It could be significant that most docs are wholly or partly employed by the state (in the UK) whereas most dentists are private. And of course vets are a wholly private concern.[CN]

在英国大多数医生是国家全职受雇或半雇用然而大多数牙医是私人的。当然了,兽医完完全全属于私事范畴的。

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
Shiv
on Sun, 14 Oct 2007 03:10 | 12

<<<Indians in India @ 80-83 IQ

Black Africans in Africa @ 70 IQ

Australian Aborinines @ 60 IQ

It’s the Truth. from over a 100 years of testing and data gathering.

These numbers are absoulutely True and correct.

Ask yourself a simple question.  How did present day India, Pakistan, Bangledash and Burma be part of the British Empire until 1947? 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sigh! Stats make the truth for this individual,  when we all know how limited these studies are.  It is EASY to prove you wrong, Josh:

Fact #1: The Chinese empire was also brought down by the numerically smaller British, yet the IQ for Chinese is 100 (mean IQ), the same as whites. And some suggest their brains are larger (1400+ CC). 

The Japanese also badly lost to the Americans in WW2 despite surprise attacks and a militaristic culture (& govt.)....yet the Japanese have a HIGHER mean IQ than whites. (And no, it was not the nuclear bomb made by brilliant Jews that did the trick, it only hastened the surrender…)

Fact #2: In India, Indians were largely a divided people. It is not one nation, but several joined by political will. The British used a divide/conquer tactic UNTIL the Indians unified under the INC ( a political aegis) and the Muslim League to win political concessions leading to freeness.

Fact #3: There are over 40,000 castes and thousands of genetic pools due to castism, where people married within their own race and types for centuries. So there is NO one genetic racial pool.

Fact #4: In the UK, a researcher by the name of Lin found the mean IO of Indians to be around 97, which is a stone’s throw away from whites (IQ 100). SEE Fact #3 for the reason why, plus add environmental factors—also available in sophisticated urban regions in India like Bombay, Delhi, Calcutta, Bangalore, Madras, etc.

Fact #5: Bangalore is the hub of research investment in India, along with Hyderabad and other places. Several Western companies invest in R&D in India for engineering, software production, and bio-technlogy. This implies that the thousands of engineers, etc, represent an IQ of 115 or greater in urban regions, SEE Fact #4 to indicate the reason why Indians can compete with whites in IQ.

Given the Bell Curve deviation, that means that an IQ of ~110 can be achieved by 10% or more the group.  More than 50 MILLION Indians live in Urban India, which makes a large number of them (several millions) probably quite competitive with whites, within 3 IQ points.

And this curve is actually erroneous, particularly amongst Indians due to the thousands of genetic pools caused by race intermixing and castes. So the intelligence levels can vary wildly.

As a FYI, to validate my points with hard stats:

FYI#1:
I am an Indian, my tested IQ is 130. I have two university degrees from the United States. So much for “mean IQ” - it is NOT applicable for complex racial mixes like Indians. I gave the reason in Fact #3.

FYI#2:
My friends (Indians of brown as well as wheat complexion) tested in the range of 120-136. One of them is a highly successful engineer (just think of the math used in that subject) with a Masters degree from the US - something impossible at at 80-90 IQ level.

FYI#3:
Amongst Africans (Negro race), Caribbean blacks have studied at higher levels of education than whites in percentage (%) terms by a HUGE margin. So….there are thousands of gene pools in Africa and elsewhere as well, which is why some blacks graduate from college - not possible with a 70-80 IQ range. The IQ level would have to boost to closer to 100-110 for the feat.


Your truth needs a lot of correcting, Josh. Almost all my classmates at school got a Master’s degree from the USA, indicating an IQ capacity of 110-120. Almost all my roomates in Dekalb, Illinois, were Indians in engineering programs at the grad level (so IQ ought to be 110+), which is highly math oriented.

Presently there are over 70,000 Indians who came from India to the US for studies, most at the graduate level - and largely in technology coursework involving math and hard science. They need to pass tough exams like GRE (a full math & logic exam lasting several hours), GMAT for business students (which I did myself, and it is long work), and English tests (TOEFL etc).

All this is NOT possible with an 80-90 IQ. Kapish?

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
Al Ross
on Sun, 14 Oct 2007 04:45 | 13

Indians are not,on average, smart.

http://www.vdare.com/rushton/070926_indians.htm

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
josh stein
on Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:13 | 14

1.  What is the Truth?

2.  What we wish the Truth to be?

James D. Watson tells the Truth.
Just because we wished does not make Trut.
All we have to do is look at the Native poplulation of the world.

Google the Native populatio the world.

Jews @ 113 IQ

East Asians in china, korea, japan @ 105 + IQ

Euro -Whites in Europe, North America, australia @ 100 IQ

u.s. blacks, mexicans, philipinos @ 85 IQ

India @ 82 IQ

Africa @ 70.

Australian Aborigines @ 60 IQ

China @ 105,  Europe @ 100 IQ   India @ 82.

Just because we want people to be smart does Not make them smart.
Just becasue I want to win the lottery does Not make me win the lottery next wee.
An individual IQ is meaningless.  You got to test 500, 5000 or 10000 to get a True IQ number for the population

Read
1.  IQ and Wealth of Nations
2.  IQ and Global Inequality

Tatu Vanhanen is the father of the Prime Minister of Finland.  Not a comic book, fantay book.  The books is about the search for Truth.

There is a big difference between

1.  What we wish the world to be.
2.  What is the Real truth about the real-world

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
Vic
on Thu, 01 Nov 2007 15:48 | 15

You cannot generalize Indian IQ as it varies tremendously amongst various sub population.  Rushton and others disregard the high IQ results by Indian in the US (Hindus have the highest SAT scores as a subgroup) by claiming that this is because of selective immigration, and then take other results of lower IQ by indian immigrants as gospel, which is also a selective group.

There are two types of immigrant from India.  Initially Highly skilled Indians emmigrated to the US. This was the initial wave.  Then their spouses and other relatives also emmigrated. This subset was not as intellectually gifted.  Then there are the economic immigrants.  These are typically people who are not doing too well in India.  Part of the reason is that they could not compete in India. This is the labor class, and probably has low IQ.  This is what is found in Fiji, Vancouver, Gulf, and Carribean.  You cannot make generalization by just looking at one group.

Britain probably has the most representative sample of immigrants. It has the doctors and engineers, along with the lower economic class people.  IQ tests have shown that Indians in Britain have an IQ of 97, despite having a verbal disadvantage of not speaking English in majority of homes.  Another study has indicated that as a group, Hindus do better than white english school children.

Most of the population in India is rural, and their brain does not get the stimulation that is needed to do well on these IQ tests.  However if you question them in their area of expertise, they have good grasp of nuances in agriculture engineering that is needed to be a succesful farmer, rural businessmen, street vendor etc.  There is also a subsection of population that is regressive and dumb, and they tend to belong to the tribal and/or lower caste population.

I would say that there is a population of 300 million in India with IQ comparable with that of white america. This essentially represents the so called middle class in India .  Then there is another 700 million with an average IQ of about 92 (adjusting for what can be termed as Flynn effect).  I would estimate that the average IQ of India is around 94…

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
voice
on Thu, 01 Nov 2007 16:08 | 16

If I were betting on it I would say , if they were raised in stimulating environment, that there IQ is close to white mean of 100.

I would also bet that they have behavioural differences that make them lazier(work ethic) and are less altruistic that Europeans causing them to have an underdeveloped third world infrastructure.

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
Gordon
on Sat, 16 Feb 2008 11:23 | 17

I am a professor , I teach math at the university level. I wonder how many of the people on this forum interact in any setting that enables observation of any intelligent traits across the genetic divide. As an educator I do this daily and for as long as I have been running a classroom I have never had an Indian student fail my class. I can however count about a dozen east Asians and score fulls of Caucasians who did not make the grade. On the contrary I have had Indian kids top my class every other year. Also, my general observation has been that Indian students grasp concepts rather quickly and have much better problem solving skills. I for one cannot believe that the Indian IQ is lower than even the American mean. The guys who did the survey got something horribly wrong, these Indians are smart, very smart.
Gordon
Austin, TX

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
Fred Scrooby
on Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:43 | 18

I have difficulty believing Gordon’s letter, which reveals an ignorance of the most basic statistical notions assumed in discussions such as these, was written by a university-level math teacher.  It would be astounding if it were, and this teacher must in such a case be incompetent.  Therefore I doubt the writer is being truthful.  Now, there’s also something unsatisfactory about the prose style of this letter, an awkwardness of a certain sort — not to mention this glaring gaffe, “score fulls of Caucasians” where of course a native English-speaker would’ve said “scores of Caucasians” — that makes me suspect Gordon is foreign, not a native speaker.  I’d guess he’s a Subcon, perhaps attending college in the States although his lack of the most elementary notions of statistical reasoning would be surprising in a college student.  He’s certainly no math major, a flat-out impossibility for that reason.

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
onlooker
on Sat, 16 Feb 2008 15:57 | 19

Gordon,

IQ notwithstanding; Could it possibly be it’s the West’s degenerate pop-culture that is at the root of the problem? I beleive that is exactly what’s causing Whites from achieving their full academic potential! You see, Whites in this day and age, in general, are preoccupied with entertainment and self indulgence. Conversely, Indians and East Asians take much better advantage of their educational opportunities. One only has to observe the study habits of the different races as it relates to their culture; ie, Blacks leave the study hall/library after an hour, Whites after 2 or 3 hours, while Asians are there 6 or 7 hours—ditto for the Jews. That’s the reason for the achievement gap. It’s that simple.

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]
nicknguyen
on Mon, 18 Feb 2008 08:46 | 20

Gordon is an Indian name. Like a typical Indian, Gordon lies and twists to brag how bright Indians are. I have been working in India for past 15 years and witness myself how primitive, filthy and low IQ an average India is. For one thing, Indian normally use bare hands for food without washing. I am not talking about bread. They rake for food in soup with their bare hands. They also do not use toilet paper! They use their bare hands too for wiping their a$$! If you see a basin of water in front of an India toilet, stay away!

[ 1 ] [ 0 ]

页面


评论

游客 请登录 注册