The Indian/Chinese IQ puzzle

@Astro

Income and literacy are not the only things that determine intelligence. In fact, sometimes poverty and illiteracy makes it more difficult to become successful.

But I agree with you on other things. We should see ourselves as an Indian first and not with regionalism. I hate bragging, but someone had to reply to all that non-sense about “Bengalis are not really that smart, it’s all just a myth”.

And may be you are correct. It’s possible that all these anti-Indian comments are actually the work of some mischievous group that is trying to create a divide within Indians and a rift between India and China because India and China combined pose a big threat to them.

@India won the war

Hindi Chini bhai bhai? Awesome!

@Great.

Yes GDP and per capital income does not provide the actual picture of the smartness of a countries citizens, especially in a Capitalist economy as it is related to literacy and equal opportunities. There can be very rich people and very poor people even though the GDP and per capita are high and hence it is not a right measurement, that is what happened not only for Bengal but also for India as a whole. For China being a communist nation the situation is different that is why they could achieve a high literacy rate and there by IQ measurements. When India achieves more than 90% of literacy the average IQ will definitely go above 100. Indians has the highest IQ in US pushing the Chinese to the 3rd place. Critics may say that it is not the right representation,  If that is the case then every Olympics winner cant be a right representation of his country of origin. IQ depends on many factors even the confidence makes a difference. The week when OBAMA became the president, authorities in US conducted IQ Tests among school students and surprisingly the black students matched in their scores with white counterparts though it only lasted for a week. What was that magic ? with mere confidence black children could match with whites. So race doesn’t matter, environments opportunities, literacy, hard working and even just confidence boosts the IQ. IQ changes (Flynn effect). I am missing “Curious Indian” here, he had some great points on this, He might have got fed up with that Chinese guy.

Did anybody noticed this forum ? this is a white supremo’s forum. They want to keep India and China at bay, If India and China joints together no force can stand against them. Can any one point out a single war between Indian and China before the communist china and British Imperialism? Himalayas is not an excuse because then there should not have been any cultural exchanges including Buddhism. Chinese and Indians should recognize this.

In second world war why did US bombed Japan rather than bombing Germany ? racism right. Pearl Harbour is just an excuse only. That doesn’t mean all whites are racist only a few % are morons like a small % of Chinese. So we all should fight against these minority racial moron’s irrespective of race, nationality and religion.

Sikhs are considered as dumb with so many sardari jokes but they are one of the most successful Indians right ?, Mallus has the highest literacy that doesn’t mean they are the smartest, they are one of the smartest Indians, same with Gugus, Marathis and for everyone one. Yes there are many smart bengalis, Bengali’s has contributed a lot but I prefer to call them as Indians rather than Bengali’s because the world knows Indians more than Bengali’s…..................

Hindi Chini bhai bhai? Awesome!

Yes, but they must have pronounced it INDI SINI BY BY.

@India won the war
LOL

@Astro

Yes, there is no place for racism. Race is unimportant. I liked those posts by “curious indian” as well. I am hoping that he will come back in future.

My comment was a comment in defence, not because I believe in racism.
There are extremists everywhere - in south, in bengal, in north - and they express their desire to get separated, but they are just deluded and of course a small minority. India is India, and it’s not defined by just this one group or that group. India may have its problems, but is still one of the sweetest places.

And we have to be very careful. I mean, how many Indian states were there even 15 years ago? How many are there now? Why do the number of states keep increasing? It’s because we keep falling into this trap of regionalism. The good thing is that at least as a country India has managed to keep itself intact, except may be for those nasty attacks on Kashmir from outside.

Many countries in the past have been deliberately broken into pieces from inside out by nasty external political forces. And unless we remain careful and united, the same might happen to us.

Look at these 2 links, especially the first one. The top countries are all very rich. Could it be just a coincidence? India is far better in both. Free market economy requires freedom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index

I have read the things posted above and have come to the following conclusions that old racism has taken a biased turn in the evaluation of racial IQs.

Let me tell you of some basic incidences that will show the hypocrisy.

1. Jews are considered people with highest IQ. But Germans had always placed them to be racially inferior of lower mental ability. Russians were termed “untermensch” these findings were supported by the contemporary academic circles in Europe and all of a sudden after the world war 2, when these countries/communities collaborated with the allies, their mental ability was restored and respected.

2. Romans, Druids, Celts, Greeks could not find a way out of the “big number problem”  still the cumbersome roman numerical notation exists. You may find the “high IQ of Romans” in addressing a way round the problem, it was not until the Indians who devised the scale of notation and thus formulating the decimal system, which actually solved the problem.

3. Indeterminate equations, Permutations, diophantine problems were solved by the Indians but today you do not find the due credits given to them.

4. Kerala school of mathematics and astronomy formulated the sine and cosine series, Gregory-Madhava series, they instituted first real analysis but are not given any credit.

5. Panini structured Sanskrit grammar that can be called the first structured language, 2000 years ago. You find Panini-Backus forms today which west could understand and appreciate and make similar forms only in the early 20th century.

6. Boolean algebra involving true and false was central to the logic and argument of Buddhist philosophy, which is an Indian philosophy.

7. Indian logic school the “Nyaya” is the world’s first analytical philosophy and epistemology. Navya-Nyaya contained the concepts of set theory and Russel’s paradox, still many do not know it or discredit it.

8. S.N. Bose was the first to describe the flaw in Maxwell-Boltzman statistics and showed that entirely new statistics is required to solve the photon gas problem. His distribution formula successfully reproduced the Planck’s formula and thus he pioneered the branch of Quantum-Statistics. Today known as Bose-Einstein statistics. He was never awarded the Nobel prize in physics. Although, several Nobel prizes were awarded in later works involving the BE condensate, superfluidity, superconductivity, W Bosons.

9. M. N. Saha’s discovery about the thermal ionization is considered 12th greatest discovery in astrophysics. Still, he missed out the Nobel prize.

10.  J.C. Bose’s contribution to Radio is accepted by IEEE as fundamental and pioneering above all he is undisputed pioneer in the use of the first semiconductor device in electronics (as crystal detector) that had later revolutionized the world. No standard texts even mentions his name although this has been historically confirmed. Needless to say no Nobel prizes were given to him.

11. George Sudarshan independently of Glauber formulated the the Glauber–Sudarshan P representation in quantum optics, a path breaking discovery, while Glauber was awarded with the Nobel prize; Sudarshan was deprived. Why? Only because he was an Indian?

12. Salam, Khorana, Raman, Venky, Amartya Sen although were credited for their works , but they have made some of the greatest contributions to their respective fields. They are Indians in origin.

13. Indologists from time to time have tried to show how stupid are the Indians but it is their inferiority complex that have let them do so, they are racists and see world as black and white. Unfortunately, their claims do not hold water.

14. In the same book quoted above, it is claimed that violence, suicides are because of low IQ now just consider the European violence and suicide rates…Claims are justified isn’t it.

15. IQ of a nation is not synonymous with its economic/political growth. China was poor, backward with a high IQ. French never won a war. Jews were homeless, tortured, killed throughout the centuries although they have the highest IQs.

16. Trivia: 36 percent of the scientists at NASA are now Indians, as are 38 percent of doctors in the United States.

Now I ask the question, are the above contributions coming out of a community having low IQ?

India , China, Japan, Korea, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc share the same philosophy that is not racist, tolerable and integral unlike western outlook that is inherently intolerable, reductionist, racist and xenophobic.
   
These biased studies are to be reconsidered, India with her massive population is not a single community unlike English, Jews, Chinese etc plus people here do not have the proper infrastructure to get proper access to the facilities and environment and such observations with biased samples should be challenged.

even though india is not on par with devoloped countries in terms of living standards it will fare better in 2 to 3 deacades
As per iq is concerned it does not make sense fighting upon it as there is no correct parameter to measure it
I would say give more time to this 60 odd year old , young country to prove it self.

I read a lot of criticism of bollywood.
A lot of bollywood may be rubbish, but there are also many gems in bollywood. Nowadays most movies are high-budget films with cheap plots, but back in those days there were many high class films made often with relatively lesser budget.

I am trying to show the other side of hindi films.
Watch this film. It’s called Anand. Anand means joy or happiness in Hindi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=2LpNKtJlAkc
(turn the captions on if you don’t understand hindi, but a lot will be lost in translation.)

Story & Direction: Hrishikesh Mukherjee
Music: Salil Chowdhury
Poetry: Gulzar

These 3 geniuses, combined with memorable performances in acting and singing and you get an absolute masterpiece.
This is a movie of the highest class, comparable to best movies anywhere in the world.

What’s sad is that while a lot of garbage movies like slumdog millionare or whatever gets attention abroad, these movies never got any attention.

In the end, after all the anti-Indian sentiments I have seen here, I have no idea about whether the people here are even capable of appreciating movies like these, but I am always an optimist. Just click the play button.

I have been feeling so sad since I got the news! I couldn’t believe it!
Within a week since I posted the movie Anand, he really died!
But, like the last line says, “Anand mara nahin hai, Anand marte nahin hai”. People like him do not die. They have a permanent place in people’s heart.

I wasn’t even born when he was a superstar, but he immediately came to notice when I heard those unforgettable songs in which he acted.

This song has been playing in my head since morning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&feature=context-cha&v=saApSghVCOU

You will always stay with us kaka.

Right bollywood, I was watching his songs after his demise, could feel that sorrow of he departing from us physically, but still living in every Indan’s heart. Salute to the first Super star in Bollywood…........

An Indian girl from Delhi creates world record by getting a perfect score in both SAT and TOEFL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&feature=related&v=DDyKGOyIYJ0

Tests like SAT and TOEFL are considered IQ related, so this girl must have an extremely high IQ.
Perfectly Indian.

In fact, a good percentage of those who get perfect scores in SAT are Indians. So, this again challenges the assumption that Indians have low IQ.

First of all, Indian, unlike Han Chinese, is not an ethnic group. Indian genetic groupings are determined both by caste and region.

To the Chinese who like to hastily point out IMO results: Chinese students actually take math olympiad classes for years, whereas Indian students only study starting a month prior. If you look at Putnam results in America, more of the top scorers all time have been Indian, even though Indians are much less likely to pursue careers in math.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lowell_Putnam_Mathematical_Competition

One of the four-time winners has been Indian, along with two of the three-time winners. On the other hand, even though the Chinese are much more likely to participate, no Chinese students have been four-time winners, and only one has been a three-time winner.

Upper caste Indians are at least as smart as Jews, and much smarter than the Chinese on average.

Well,I am back to address few things since lot had been said about me by The great or Astro previously.

First I did not need any backup since I showed the whole list of famous people from Bengal.But my post was not related with any particular ethnic group but rather I was talking about the educational or cultural heritage of Bengal.And the list provided by the Great is just only 10% but I will show few great names that he did not mention.But the list contains only few pioneering names given below:

Reformer/humanitarian:

                        1.Rammohan Roy-regarded as father of modern India/Bengal renaissance
                        2.Mother Teresa.

Without Rammohan I don’t think there would have been any of those Boses,Tagore,Vivekananda etc.he was the man in the mirror who first realized that the only way the 1000 years of nightmare can be diminished is by reviving the entire education system with the mixture of best of ancient Indian thoughts and modern rational thoughts of west.He brought English education in Bengal and the result was there within few years.Although Tagore hailed Rammohan but Gandhi blamed him for being westernized.that truly shows Gandhi’s poor insight related to modern education.In fact ever since he emerged into power of Indian politics Indian science started to go back where it was before 1890.

Physician:
       
          1.Subhas Mukhopadhya-world’s second test tube baby creator with 67 days of the first one but the most decorated technique used in today’s world but missed nobel due to his tragic death bin 1981.

          2.Ronald Ross

          3.Upendra nath Bramhachari.

          These 3 from Bengal have featured in top 1100 researcher of the world from classical age to 2000 AD.

Chemistry:P.C ray-he has recently become the first non european to win royal society award in his 1560th birth anniversary.

          we have not produced any Nobel prize worth work in bengal in field of chemistry yet but i know some one who might bring that award in Kolkata in next 20-30 years.

ISI kolkata:

          1.P.c Mahalanobis
          2.C.R Rao-regarded as top 10 greatest statistician of all time.

Nobel prize:so far all Indian Nobel laureates are from kolkata,Bengal.
            And apart from Abdus Salam of Pakistan rest of the nnobel laureates from south asia are from greater Bengal which includes Bangladesh.

            So until and unless you are producing a Nobel prize working in your home you should stop running your big stupid dumb mouth.

          Now population of west Bengal:

          group a-Hindu Bengali and Christian-literacy 85-90 %and iq about 90-95.

          group b-Hindu non Bengali Hindu,sikh,Jain etc-iq 80-85 and literacy 70-75%
   
          group c-Muslim Bengali-literacy 60-65% and iq 75-80.

          group d-Muslim non Bengali -literacy <50% and iq 65-70.

        in my first post i mostly said about group a and if i exclude rest of the people whom we don’t need in West Bengal the literacy and average iq will increase by huge amount.

        movies:

                Well,satyajit ray’s 5-6 movies in Bengali are regarded in top 100 movie list by various international magazines vs 0 Bollywood movies.

        music:

              Even before Harrison,John Lennon and Ravishankar mesmerized us with best of Western pop and classical Indian music,Bengali poet Tagore brought western music long ago in his Bengali songs including various English,Scottish and Irish melody such as Auld lang syne,Nancy lee,dream to me only,British grenadiers etc.

        Now I am not here to discuss about all those deluded stupid comments made by the great regarding Tesla or Einstein’s contribution in BEC but since he has said something about Vivekananda then I must say the person who influenced Tesla more than anybody is Vivekanada with his Vedic science and philosophy.And may be it was Vivekananda’s ideology which prompted Tesla to remain lifelong bachelor and a devotee of science throughout his life.

  Also it is not Amartya Sen but Bangladeshi Economist Yunus who is so far the greatest Economist of Asia and micro credit is one of the greatest invention in economics of all time and thus it makes Yunus one of the major humanitarian of all time.

      Astro was blaming me for being regionally biased-no, I am not but I just do not want to assimilate myself with inferior ,pathetic,deluded scum dog like you.And remeber one thing-even today bengal produces better talent in one single day that your rest of fat big ass hole India produces in 10 years.

          Bengali people are one of the smartest people of the Planet-Another delusion-More than 90% have been achieved by Hindu Bengali who are one third of total Bengali population and among Hindu only 10 percent are smart

          Bengali Brahmin are 20 million in India and only 2-3 lakh in capital kolkata-But those 3 lakhs have already produced 3 Nobel winning work-Tagore,Subhas Mukhopadhya and Amartya Sen were all Brahmin from the city who worked there but Brahmins living outside city have not achieved any success because of lack of awareness and sometimes lack of opportunities.

Along with 4% Brahmin the Kayastha community in Bengal are lot smarter than Brahmins of rest of India-JC Bose,Satyendra Bose,swami vivekananda were all Bengali kayastha.

            So just because of Brahmins and few Kayastha community one can not say that entire Bengali community are very smart.

            By the way Indus civilization was also discovered by Bengali Rakhaldas Banerjee.

          In last 10 years Bengali with 2-3% from indian immigrants won 2 pulitzer vs rest of India 1.

            Bengali people have won nearly one and half dozen Grammy but how many rest of India won(not even a footnote!!!)

      Foreigners know more about India but British who know more about this country than any other foreigners know more about Bengal because they are quite aware of the cultural renaissance that occured in Bengal in early 19th century.

      Now I have to discuss few things with Jonjayray about this iq research but i don’t know what that dude is doing right know 7 years after creating this thread…

                      HAPPY OLYMPIC GAMES TO EVERYONE

    -To the Chinese who like to hastily point out IMO results: Chinese sudents actually take math olympiad classes for years, whereas Indian students only study starting a month prior. If you look at Putnam results in America, more of the top scorers all time have been Indian, even though Indians are much less likely to pursue careers in math.

This is not true. First of all the East Asian IQ is strongest in spatial, not math. So most of the best students enter the engineering departments. Though both exams are just a loss of time IMO would be a much better indicator of ability as only the math undergraduates can take the Putnam test. You can see from the list below about how many Indians were Putnam Fellows. This list was given to me by a person who doesn’t believe in race much so the term ‘Christian’ means white.
And one more thing about Curious Indian who doesn’t post here any more. He says if there is one study which seemed to raise IQ (!) then it is enough (!) to prove that IQ can be improved. I can easily use the same logic of his own. I can say that if there is one study failed (whereas in fact there are numerous in USA) then it is enough that IQ can’t be changed. If there is a specific method to improve IQ it should work everywhere, not only in Zaire or Venezuela. The most reliable studies are in the USA. This is not even open to discussion. His explanation that the students must have lost their interests by the time they were adults is just anecdotal and ridiculous. But it is a good example to show the dishonesty of the liberals about how they make the discussion. It means the others can easily do the same thing if there is any improvement in IQ. They can say the students gained more interests (!), but not IQ. This is not an answer. Does it make sense to assume that 7 millions of students lost their interests in a study like Head Start which cost multibillions?
Bjorn Poonen (Harvard)  -        Indian
1985, 1986, 1987, 1988
David I. Zuckerman (Harvard) - likely Jewish
1986
Waldemar P. Horwat (MIT)  - ?
1986
David J. Grabiner (Princeton) - Jewish
1986, 1987, 1988
David         J. Moews (Harvard) - ?
1986, 1987, 1988
Constantin S. Teleman (Harvard) - ?
1987
John S. Tillinghast (UC Davis)  - ?
1987
Jeremy A. Kahn (Harvard) - likely Jewish
1988
Ravi D.          Vakil (Toronto) - Canadian-Indian
1988, 1989, 1990, 1991
Andrew H. Kresch (Yale) - ?
1989
Christos A. Athanasiadis (MIT) - ?
1989
Colin M. Springer (Waterloo) - ?
1989
Sihao Wu (Yale) - likely Chinese
1989
William P. Cross (Caltech) - ?
1989
Jordan Lampe (UC Berkeley) - ?
1990
Raymond M. Sidney (Harvard) - ?
1990
Eric K. Wepsic (Harvard) - ?
1990, 1991
Jordan S. Ellenberg         (Harvard) - Jewish
1990, 1992
Joshua B. Fischman (Princeton) - likely Jewish
1991
Xi Chen (Missouri–Rolla) - probably Chinese
1991
Samuel A. Kutin (Harvard) - likely Jewish
1991, 1992
Jeffrey M. Vanderkam (Duke) - ?
1992
Serban M. Nacu (Harvard) - ?
1992
Adam Logan (Princeton) -        Canadian
1992, 1993
Craig B. Gentry (Duke) - ?
1993
Wei-Hwa Huang (Caltech) -        likely Chinese
1993
J. P. Grossman (Toronto) - Canadian, likely         Jewish
1993, 1994, 1995
Kiran S. Kedlaya (Harvard) -        ethnic Indian
1993, 1994, 1995
Lenhard L. Ng (Harvard) -        ethnic Asian
1993, 1994, 1995
William R. Mann (Princeton) - ?
1994
Jeremy L. Bem (Cornell) - ?
1994, 1996
Sergey V. Levin (Harvard) - ? Russian Jew?
1995
Yevgeniy Dodis (NYU) - European
1995
Dragos N. Oprea (Harvard) - European
1996
Ioana Dumitriu (NYU) - Romanian female
1996
Robert D. Kleinberg (Cornell) - likely Jewish
1996
Stephen S. Wang (Harvard) - likely Chinese
1996
Daniel K. Schepler (Washington U in StL) - ?
1996, 1997
Ovidiu Savin (Pittsburgh)        - ?
1997
Patrick K. Corn (Harvard) - ?
1997
Samuel Grushevsky (Harvard) - likely Jewish
1997
Mike Develin (Harvard) - ?
1997, 1998
Ciprian Manolescu         (Harvard) - Romanian
1997, 1998, 2000
Ari M. Turner (Princeton) - ?
1998
Nathan G. Curtis (Duke) - ?
1998
Kevin D. Lacker (Duke) - ?
1998, 2001
Christopher C. Mihelich (Harvard) - ?
1999
Colin A. Percival (Simon         Fraser) - Canadian
1999
Davesh Maulik (Harvard) - ?
1999
Derek I.E. Kisman (Waterloo) - Canadian
1999
Sabin Cautis (Waterloo) - Canadian
1999
Abhinav Kumar (MIT) - Indian
1999, 2000
Pavlo Pylyavskyy (MIT) - European
2000
Alexander B. Schwartz (Harvard) - likely Jewish
2000, 2002
Gabriel D. Carroll (UC         Berkeley, Harvard) - Christian
2000, 2001, 2002, 2003
George Lee, Jr. (Harvard) - Vietnamese/Chinese
2001
Jan K. Siwanowicz (City College of NY) - ?
2001
Reid W. Barton (MIT) -        Christian
2001, 2002, 2003, 2004
Deniss Cebikins (MIT) - ?
2002
Melanie E. Wood (Duke) -        Christian female
2002
Ralph C. Furmaniak (Waterloo) - Canadian
2003
Ana         Caraiani (Princeton) - Romanian female
2003, 2004
Daniel M. Kane         (MIT) - Jewish (my son)
2003, 2004, 2005, 2006
Vladimir V. Barzov (MIT) - Russian
2004
Aaron Pixton (Princeton) -        1/2 Jewish
2004, 2005, 2007
Oleg         Golberg (MIT) - Russian Jew
2005
Matthew M. Ince (MIT) - Christian
2005
Ricky I. Liu (Harvard) - Chinese
2005
Tiankai Liu (Harvard) - Chinese
2005, 2006
Hansheng Diao (MIT) - Chinese
2006
Po-Ru Loh (Caltech) - Chinese/Singapore-American
2006
Yufei         Zhao (MIT) - Chinese
2006, 2008, 2009
Jason C. Bland (Caltech) - ?
2007
Brian R. Lawrence (Caltech) - 1/2 Jewish
2007, 2008, 2010
Qingchun Ren (MIT) - Chinese
2007, 2009
Xuancheng Shao (MIT) - Chinese
2007
Arnav Tripathy (Harvard) - Indian
2007, 2008, 2009
Seok Hyeong Lee (Stanford)        - Korean
2008, 2010
Bohua Zhan (MIT) - Asian
2008
William Johnson (U of Washington) - ?
2009
Xiaosheng Mu (Yale) - Chinese
2009
Yu Deng (MIT) - Chinese
2010
Colin P. Sandon (MIT) - ?
2010
Alex (Lin) Zhai (Harvard) - Chinese
2010

I don’t see how you in any way disproved my point. I made the cutoff of top scorers three-time fellows and above. I guess I’m taking into consideration: (1) upper caste Indians only make up 10-15% of India (about 120-180 million people); (2) that they form a smaller portion of the American population than both the Chinese and Jews, respectively (only about .4% if you discount the mid caste and lower caste Indians in America); (3) almost no Indians even bother participating in or preparing for math olympiads or careers; (4) historically, high castes alone have been more influential than all of China combined, supplying much of China itself’s culture; and (5) Indians are much newer immigrants than both the Chinese and the Jews.

Despite that, Indians outperform every other group, even when you include lower castes. Your list is unfair, because it takes into account America pre-80s, when there were no Indians. Even now, the upper caste Indian population is dwarfed by the Chinese and Jewish ones, and still easily outperforms the Chinese one, and arguably does the Jewish one as well. I think I have good reason to believe upper castes are on a completely different level from the Chinese intellectually.

Sorry, I was wrong about you taking into account pre-80s. But my point still stands, since upper castes combine to comprise less than half the population of Chinese people in the US, and comprised an even less significant portion in the 80s and 90s. Also, you’ll notice most of China’s appearances are one-time fellows, who show up partially because of the sheer number of Chinese students who participate; whereas all of India’s appearances include two-time fellows and above. Upper caste Indian mathematicians are definitely much more impressive here.

In the last post I made an error that Bengali Brahmins are 20 million in India-it would be 20 lakhs i.e 2 millions.

And one more thing-this year 6 Indian participated in IMO-3 of them are Bengali from west Bengal and one have won gold and another one silver.Last year it was even better-one Gold,one silver and one Bronze from west Bengal.

                                    Debdyuti Banerjee-gold,last year he won Bronze.

                                    Akashnil Dey-silver,last year he also won silver

                                    Akashnil Dutta-last year Gold but this year could not participate due to some exams may be.

Nothing in modern times is a better indicator of the race to super power than the Olympics.

Day 1
China - 6 medals ; 4 golds, 2 bronze - Rank 1
India - 0 medals!

Day 2
China - 12 medals ; 6 golds, 4 silver, 2 bronze - Rank 1
India - 0 medals!