The Indian/Chinese IQ puzzle

I am starting to think certain haplogroups that form a higher proportion of populations might be contributing to intelligence levels. If you look at the brahmins, a high proportion of males seem to be R1a, R2 and J2 y dna. J2 originated in middle east and has been recognized as a marker that gave way to the spread of agriculture from Middle East. I believe males who ultimately became successful farmers were more intelligent, had more resources which women were more attracted to and probably had more children. J2 has a higher concentration in southern india compared to northern india. It is also quite high in askhenazi Jews and people from northern middle east. I am not sure what ethnicities contribute to extremely high intelligence socities. I have always heard there were high percentages of Askhenazi Jews. I believe certain genes that are passed on by men carrying R1, J2, O y dna contribute to intelligence. Lot of research has to be done to figure out what genes are contributing to intelligence, which is just a waste of time as everyone is just looking for an upper hand in this competitive world

Alex: “It’s not race that matters, but health.”

LOL! Yes, I’m sure this explains it.  I marvel how, even in middle class communities of the developed world, disease and epidemics manage to strike down black students but leave white students unscathed, thus accounting for IQ discrepencies. This happens in literally thousands of school districts across the fruited plain, pretty much without exception. 

But wait, there’s more! Then disease manages to hit the middle class white students, while sparing the middle class asians! Wowza!

Amazingly, in thousands of communities all across the developed world, this same strange pattern of disease and malnutrition manages to strike certain groups and spare others, even though we control for income and educational levels of parents.

Interestingly, white children of parents who make less than $10,000 dollars a year outscore on the SAT the children of black parents who make upper middle class incomes.  It’s amazing how disease and malnutrition magically spares the trailer park, stalking the upper income black families instead!!!

The lengths you race denying cultists will go to deny reality, well, it’s actually impressive.  You take something that has a degree of truth - if Akbar is constantly malnourished or starving, then yeah that’s not going to do much for his brain development or performance on IQ tests - and then you use this to obfuscate a broader and more deeply fundamental truth, namely that the races are indeed different. 

So tell me Alex, who is nuttier?  The crazed religious zealot who believes things that cannot be proven one way or the other, or the race denying cultist who just as fervently believes things that are demonstrably, provably untrue? 

In the crazy department, you guys beat the religious zealots hands down.  But fortunately, I’m here to help you.  What you need is a quite moment of introspection and reflection.  In this moment of Zen, you might question the motives of the people who fill you with such nonsense, not to mention your own motives for then spreading it. 

But nah, that would be too hard.  Back to the cult!

To fully understand the scope of Chinese inventions, that even have impact today one only has to read a book like: Robert Temple, Joseph Needham, “The Genius of China: 3,000 Years of Science, Discovery, and Invention”

It’s a myth that Chinese cannot innovate: most things that are useful were invented by Chinese, even the things that people take for granted like paper money, or well drilling (ancient Chinese were drilling about 2km into the earth to extract salt with bamboo poles) so useful to extract oil today. Just a few example to mention, there are alot more of course, the use of negative numbers in math, navigation with compass, gunpowder etc. etc. too much to mention. Basically everything we have today are just modern versions of ancient Chinese inventions.

It’s of course bullshit to say that China has no mathematical talents, I mean who the fuck cares who get appointed as prof at Princeton, does princeton mark a achievement? Most degrees are “bought” in america anyway, as long they pay their college fee they will graduate, even Bush has degree from Stanford! University is for the rich not for the smart in america.

I mean like all prizes and appointments, it’s useless. Fuck the field medals of whatever prize, it’s not important.
It’s just as irrelevant to me as “foreign relations” (I wouldn’t give a fuck about what other countries/people think as long as I make China stronger) I mean even if America succeeded in bribing some Chinese politicians, it wouldn’t make any difference. We focus on making China stronger and these traitors will be shot/hanged anyway if we have a situation with the americans.

The best way of running a country is a kind of military commission: it’s the only way to guarantee a traitor free government, then of course the commission should consist of highly nationalistic officers who are more fond of war than money. Money is not important, in war you can take what you want, so there is no need for trade. Taking whole nations and their resources.

Instead of piling up useless american bonds or other crap they call “wealth”, let the losers of WWII supply the americans with hondas and mercedesand pay tribute, we are Chinese, undefeated Chinese so we have no obligations whatsoever to improve american living standards with cheap electronics or clothes. America neither defeated us nor liberated us.
let the rest of the world pay tribute, we are Chinese which will set us apart from the rest of the colonized or ex colonized monkeys who are craving for their former master attention, like the useless monkeys in south east asia. I don’t take pride in talking english.

I don’t want foreign tourists in China, in fact I don’t even want foreign cars in China, let alone so called “foreign talents”, those who return from america might be traitors. I have read so many books written by foreigners or Chinese traitors that everything is clear to me: america is the source of mishaps of China, the sooner we face them in war the better.

All these bullshit advices they offer in these books, of all the crap things we should do: China must do this, China must do that, while they exempt themselves.

The Chinese politicians/traitors better think about doing the right things first: For Chinese only, only for the Chinese nation, nothing else.

China should not go the way as the losers of WWII, being a nation of export, the losers might be great economies but they are also slaves of their american masters, what choice did they have other than to become nations of exporters (to america)?! they were defeated and occupied by the americans, big deal that they have large GDP, these countries are american lackeys, they have american bases on their soil and they cannot object to that.

I am so glad I am Chinese, rich loser of WWII or poor independent, I would choose the latter.
China should not go this way, and I will explain why with examples.

South Korea: success story of the east with large enterprises, again this is a small country with a small internal market, so they have no other choice than to look for overseas markets, but China has huge internal market, we sholdn’t be exporters like the south korean, because the south koreans have no choice. the japanese are a small island with no resources at all, they too are forced to trade, and of course after their defeat. But China is different, we have a huge market and we have huge resources too.
I don’t know exactly what average income per year the japanese have, but their lifestyle is hugely inferior to the lifestyle of Chinese middle income. (because everything is so much cheaper in China).

It’ folly to compare China to germany or japan, germany and japan are losers! They have no choice.

China must not get into this trap of voluntarily tying our hands like the germans and japanese. All these talk about that we “need the americans” is bullshit! Why the fuck are we financing west, so they buy from us, this whole idea of trade is useless, but maybe somebody can explain to me the advantqages of foreign trade.

Fuck foreign trade and relations, it’s irrelevant. What we should do are the things we need to do, like sinking aircarft carriers, intervene in foreign lands, set up Chinese bases.

All the other stuff is bullshit and work of traitors, having a cozy relationship with americans is treason.

Fuck trade! Why should Chinese peasants finance western consumers, getting bad money back instead, paper notes worth nothinig. I don’t care how they call it, what point is it in having a 2 trillion of foreign reserves, what good is that for China?! It fucking get recycled in american bonds which yields no return at all.

Only fools think it will benefit China, all this crap about “soft power” ( I don’t believe in soft power only hard military power), chairman Mao is right: america is a paper tiger and they are good for nothing, except leeching off other countries.

Let the european slaves finance the living style of their american masters, since america keeps reminding them that america liberated them.

fuck trade with the europeans too!
financing european lifestyle with Chinese money is treason! What good is it to buy fucking useless european bonds from bankrupt european countries?!

well fuck it! With Chinese money the PLA must be enforced, the american try to trick us into being wimps while they spend more and more money to arms. I say let’s follow suit and it will not be China that will be bankrupt in the arms race.

First they build 50 arleigh burke class DDG, or ten per year in a period while there was no need for that, the soviet union didn’t exist anymore. Then they say to China: “look we have not build any destroyers the last ten years!” Yeah I say China should also build 50 destroyers first and then say: look we have not build any navy ship lately.

we should match them ship for ship, nuke for nuke, sub for sub. They have no need of 12 aircraft carriers, but they built them.

Only fools will walk into the trap, america wants to make wimps out of the current generation of Chinese, but the americans were never friendly to us, never, it was a fucking mistake to have diplomatic relations with america. these people are not our friends, they are scum and enemies!
and europeans will take side of america which will make them enemies of China too. But of course there are plenty of nukes.

real power is hard military power, nuke boats, nuke missiles, destroyers.

“Soft power” is bullshit and anybody uttering these words is a fool.

America steals resources from the whole world, the price is just the cost of printing paper dollars, and they tell us how to behave?!
who’s waging war all the time? But I tend to think that those wars benefitted america, I say China must follow suite with warmaking. It really pays off.

China must wage wars too and emulate american behaviour, it works.

europeans are the shy slaves of americans, of course it could be that they voluntarily choose to follow the americans because they feel that they owe the americans. I am pretty convinced though that they just don’t feel the contempt of the americans for the “old europeans”, in the words of Bush to speak of.

Think about it, most white americans (75%) are descendant from poor italians, greeks, spaniards etc. the poorerst people in europe at the time when they migrated to america. They don’t feel any connection to old world as they see it. Sure they talk english, but it’s not because they descended from brits, it’s because italians started to learn english. The majority of white americans are overwhelmingly descended from southern europeans, that’s what PLA said if genetic composition of whites in america. I am pretty sure the americans know it themselves without Chinese army geneticists telling them.
Actually not surprising, but it is funny.

We know everything: the genetic composition of our neighbours, what kind of planes they flying, what they think, we know everything.
our indian neighbours are actually the ancestors or better sat the modern cousins of australian aboriginals! the japanese male Y genome contain filipino or indonesian ( the puny skinny gene) traces, does not surprise me, just look at japanese males, some of them look like south east asians. Just compare the Chinese male swimmers with the male japanese swimmers, the Chinese are taller and better built.

of course the hindus are lying about their genetic composition, but that does not surprise me, with their white worship attitude, they are truly a race apart, they are middle easterners and australian aboriginal mix. There is no R1b in india, there is no N3 in india, there is no Q in india. The R1a, small number, that may exist came from the mughal (mongols) a couple of hundred years ago. there is however J2 that clearly show that some of them migrated from iran 1200 bc.
the language link is because the ancient indo european speakers came from anatolia (middle east) 8000 years ago with the spread of farming, and the people from the area of iran invaded india 1200 bc, that’s where the link is.

To Matt you are wrong, but you are a hindu of course.

Haplogroup Distribution for India - R1a, R2, J2, O, L, H, very little R1b, Q, F*, E, G
Haplogroup Distribution for Europe(varies in different parts of Europe) - R1a, R1b, I1a, I2a, N3, J2, E3b, T, G
Haplogroup Distribution for East Asia - O (mostly O), N, D

There is no native R1b, nor Q, in india and foreign tourists are not indian cititzens.

East Asia is wrong to speak of. Here for China.

Chinese Male: O about 50%, N3 12.5%, R1a 10%, R1b 10%, further D and J accounting for rest.

“Haplogroup Distribution for India - R1a, R2, J2, O, L, H, very little R1b, Q, F*, E, G
Haplogroup Distribution for Europe(varies in different parts of Europe) - R1a, R1b, I1a, I2a, N3, J2, E3b, T, G
Haplogroup Distribution for East Asia - O (mostly O), N, D “

It could be that this Matt guy copied it from internet, but it’s as reliable as the wikipedia bullshit.

indo-european speech is from the area of anatolia, 8000 years ago this was a centre of farming, which spreaded into europe. indo-europeans were not from steppes of russia, they look as the people of today armenia and turkey, they were not blond nor blue eyed. they looked as middle easterners.

the gene of blond hair and blue eyes are not from middle easterners, I mean the mutation does not originate from middle easterners.

indo-european speech is from the area of anatolia, 8000 years ago this was a centre of farming, which spreaded into europe. indo-europeans were not from steppes of russia, they look as the people of today armenia and turkey, they were not blond nor blue eyed. they looked as middle easterners.

Is there a point to your disinformation, or do you just annoy robbing white people of a significant part of their heritage like every other street-corner blabbermouth?

indo-european speech is from the area of anatolia, 8000 years ago this was a centre of farming, which spreaded into europe. indo-europeans were not from steppes of russia, they look as the people of today armenia and turkey, they were not blond nor blue eyed. they looked as middle easterners.

The Anatolian Hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis, which has never been conclusively established.  Furthermore, it concerns the fact that a certain branch of the R haplotype dispersed into Europe via Anatolia.  It says nothing about those people having a Near Eastern phenotype, nor should it because any such claim would be completely speculative and not based on evidence (unlike the genetic record, which is the basis for the hypothesis).  Incidentally, Near Eastern phenotypes tend to be associated with areas where Haplotypes E, G, and J are in high concentration, not R.

Fail.

The Anatolian Hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis, which has never been conclusively established.  Furthermore, it concerns the fact that a certain branch of the R haplotype dispersed into Europe via Anatolia.  It says nothing about those people having a Near Eastern phenotype, nor should it because any such claim would be completely speculative and not based on evidence (unlike the genetic record, which is the basis for the hypothesis).  Incidentally, Near Eastern phenotypes tend to be associated with areas where Haplotypes E, G, and J are in high concentration, not R.

That’s a pretty stupid comment for a myriad of reasons. No, really, I’m not sure where to begin and where to end but I shouldn’t expect much from someone who doesn’t know the difference between haplotype and haplogroup and confuses a linguistic hypothesis with genetic hypotheses, in the first place. Btw, fair features (which is what this “phenotype” discussion is all about really) quite likely developed in the neolithic or post-neolithic period (and wouldn’t have been as ubiquitous as they are in certain areas today, in the beginning) so there you go.

Is there a point to your disinformation, or do you just annoy robbing white people of a significant part of their heritage like every other street-corner blabbermouth?

He is a looney toon but his putting forward one theory about the IE urheimat robs “white people” of their heritage in what way?

He is a looney toon but his putting forward one theory about the IE urheimat robs “white people” of their heritage in what way?

a) In precisely the same fashion as putting white people in alarm quotes. Either there was an ethnosphere of carriers of the R1a mutation and who eventually came to refer to themselves as “Aryans”, or there was not; either this was inside what is today Europe, or it was not, despite the best efforts of some crypto-egalitarians to introduce literal “fuzzy borders” into the paleohistoric model (an ethnic “continuum”).
b) This theory has been repeatedly disproved by highly qualified scholars in every pertinent field — from archaeology to paleo-zoology; it’s popularity stems from political motive, originally to claim the Indo-Europeans for the Soviet sphere of influence (Gamkrelidze & Ivanov using slipshod etymology), latterly to deny them a place in Europe (Renfrew, Elst, et al.); the unspoken logic here is that if the Aryans had their start in Europe, Europeans will one day come alive to their remotest heritage and become naziswhowanttokillsixmillionjews.

I don’t know to which race this C.M. belongs, but you can be sure he is extra-European, because only two kinds of people bring so much vehemence to denying a European urheimat: Asians, and leftists like Elst. The entire Indo-European scholarly community within Europe and America, including most mainstream Indian and Asian experts, are behind the Ukraine refugium / steppe model. This includes many brilliant men like J.P. Mallory, David Anthony, and above all Michael Witzel.

There is no longer any debate here. Well, there is, in the way there is still a debate between creationists and evolutionists. For that matter a woman told me not long ago that one maggot spawns thousands of flies. There are different levels of understanding among people, and C.M., despite some ideas with which I agree, relies on others that are laughably false — that “most white americans” are descended from Italians, Greeks and Spaniards for example. Spanish immigration to America was one of the sparest of all European nationalities. But I won’t waste time taking apart that stupidity. I’ve exhausted myself battling “Anatolians”, who are secure in their solution merely by virtue of having not read the “Ukrainians”.

A last point to consider: Even Razib Khan and Dienekes (two wogs that is) support the Ukrainian model. These are legendary eggheads with a grasp of genetics that soars above all of our heads, including this C.M.

Who you gonna believe?

That’s a pretty stupid comment for a myriad of reasons.  No, really, I’m not sure where to begin and where to end but I shouldn’t expect much from someone who doesn’t know the difference between haplotype and haplogroup

Yes, haplogroup is the correct term, and I’m not a genetics specialist so I can be forgiven for occasionally making mistakes.  Nevertheless, none of what I said regarding those haplogroups and their distribution is untrue, nor did you refute it.

and confuses a linguistic hypothesis with genetic hypotheses, in the first place.

No, I did not confuse it, as the two are linked and there has been genetic research which supported the hypothesis only recently.  It was less convincing before there was any real evidence for a migration out of Anatolia.  I’m afraid you really don’t have as much of a bone to pick as you think.

Btw, fair features (which is what this “phenotype” discussion is all about really) quite likely developed in the neolithic or post-neolithic period (and wouldn’t have been as ubiquitous as they are in certain areas today, in the beginning) so there you go.

Yes, there is evidence that blue eyes originated in the Neolithic but to my knowledge no similar data has been compiled on blond hair or light skin pigmentation.  The point here is that the scientific record is not adequate on these questions and your speculations need more evidence to be convincing.

C.M. has said he’s Chinese. I don’t see a particular reason to disbelieve his claim, considering he is or presents himself as an anti-European sinophile.

You don’t need to familiarize me with the details of IE - some of which you interpret in an eccentric or at least lopsided fashion due to your worldview (e.g. pro-European urheimat arguments have been the worst offenders regarding unscientific arguments in the past, e.g. Colin Renfrew who has studied some of the earliest European cultures is somehow “anti-European” even though his argument stems from his archaeological interpretation about continuity in Europe). There are still unsolved problems with all urheimats. Based on my readings, I too think the steppe model more likely (or at least a combination of neolithic + steppe for both west and east) but it’s not a settled question in the sense that, say, IE linguistic unity is, by any means.

Either there was an ethnosphere of carriers of the R1a mutation and who eventually came to refer to themselves as “Aryans”, or there was not; either this was inside what is today Europe, or it was not, despite the best efforts of some crypto-egalitarians to introduce literal “fuzzy borders” into the paleohistoric model (an ethnic “continuum”).

Question time: What is “Europe” today? The area up to the Don, the area up to the Urals? The Russian steppe is good to go but Anatolia is a region so far removed from us that we might as well not acknowledge it (nevermind that even the Turks -culturally alien Muslims, sure- have less East Asian input today than some Russians do)? How do you know which Y-DNA haplogroup was dominant in the steppes back then and why do you present it as part of your “either or” argument? Are you extrapolating from the situation that exists today, after all those Iranians moved East, Turks moved East then Russians moved West across what was a thinly-populated region? I’m not even sure why you mentioned the purported dominant haplogroup of those people, in the first place. It says nothing about their autosomal genetics or their influence on the settled, agricultural populations. Perhaps it’s just an argument of the “sometime in the past, there existed a grand white people who gave us most of our languages” sort. I guess I don’t really see the attraction in that.

In precisely the same fashion as putting white people in alarm quotes

It’s a phrase that means very different things to different people, that’s why I put it in quotes (please don’t make the argument that I could say that about any ethnic grouping). Some think white = Caucasoid, some think white = European (as a term seems to have its own problems), some think white = NW Europe. I wasn’t denying your existence. :-(

Even Razib Khan and Dienekes (two wogs that is) support the Ukrainian model

Dienekes, if anything, is pro-Anatolian. I don’t know about Razib but he seems to support a steppe model for at least the Indo-Iranians. What’s a wog btw?

Nevertheless, none of what I said regarding those haplogroups and their distribution is untrue, nor did you refute it.

No, it’s not untrue *entirely* but it’s ridiculous on so many levels that I won’t spend time refuting it.

No, it’s not untrue *entirely* but it’s ridiculous on so many levels that I won’t spend time refuting it.

IOW, “I have no argument with you anymore.”

To clarify, what I’m saying is that populations with high incidence of haplogroup R are generally associated with European appearances or in some cases Eurasian appearances as it also appears in Central Asia, Siberia, etc, and that populations with high incidence of haplogroup E, J and G are generally associated with Near Eastern appearances.  Judging from the available evidence, this is not a far-fetched claim. 

I don’t really know what the argument would be here?  How is it ridiculous to generalize about this?  I’d be interested to know what you think is wrong.