The Indian/Chinese IQ puzzle

Hmmm, you have some issues with gooks. Anyways slant eyes is not a ape or primitive feature. They (like light coloured eyes and hair) are actually more evolved features.
Again
The Northern European and the North East Asian are the two most advanced races. The Negroid and Papuan/ Australians are the most primitive races. Browns fall in between. That is why they fall between the primitive races and the advanced races in IQ and looks.

I agree with you circuit on the fact that post 1500, Whites have invented about 90% of the things.

It does appear that societies strongly based on the thoughts of Confucius have most signally failed to produce top quality computer programmers. This is almost certainly a societal thing and unrelated to IQ so perhaps IQ is not so important.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Fund

Richard Lynn, Philip Ruston and various other guys are funded by anti immigration groups in the west, the data published by them is bogus and fabricated, to serve the cause of the Pioneer fund and their likes. There books are published post circa 2000 when immigration to the western nations is at record levels from the developing world, also expose their dubious intentions of persuading the western governments to stop immigration from the so called “Third world countries.”

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), a nonprofit organization, lists the Pioneer Fund as a hate group citing the fund’s history, its funding of race and intelligence research, and its connections with allegedly racist individuals.[29][3]

They also state: “Race science has potentially frightening consequences, as is evident not only from the horrors of Nazi Germany, but also from the troubled racial history of the United States. If white supremacist groups had their way, the United States would return to its dark days. In publication after publication, hate groups are using this “science” to legitimize racial hatred. In Calling Our Nation, the neo-Nazi Aryan Nations publishes a piece by a New York psychologist surveying the work of Jensen, Garrett and numerous others. National Vanguard, the publication of former physics professor William Pierce (see The Alliance and its Allies) and his neo-Nazi National Alliance, runs a similar piece that concludes that “it is the Negro’s deficiency ... which kept him in a state of savagery in his African environment and is now undermining the civilization of a racially mixed America

IQ and the Wealth of Nations’ was not peer-reviewed before publication but was published by a publisher of academic literature. Peer reviewed articles have used the IQ scores presented in the book and some have also commented on the claims in the book.

Several negative reviews have been published in the scholarly literature. Susan Barnett and Wendy Williams wrote that “we see an edifice built on layer upon layer of arbitrary assumptions and selective data manipulation. The data on which the entire book is based are of questionably validity and are used in ways that cannot be justified.”[10] They also wrote that cross country comparisons are “virtually meaningless.” Ken Richardson wrote “This is not so much science, then, as a social crusade. The Pioneer Fund of America, champion of many dubious causes in the past, will obtain little credit from having assisted this one.”[11] Thomas Nechyba wrote of “relatively weak statistical evidence and dubious presumptions.”[12] Astrid Ervik asked “are people in rich countries smarter than those in poorer countries?” and concluded that “the authors fail to present convincing evidence and appear to jump to conclusions

Happened to hit this website. I would say all these IQ researches are bullshit. “Japan is so successful” => find data to prove it. “Higher IQ”. “China is developing so quickly recently” => find data to prove it “Higher IQ”. And All these are just to prove the White superior since Whites are the most successful in recent several centuries, although they were living in dens like wild boars just 1700 years ago until Hun drove them out of their dens. India has civilization > 4500 years. It lag behind in recent centuries but It is catching up now.

India has civilization > 4500 years.

It’s owing to some of those former den-dwellers that you’re able to communicate with us in our language over this medium. Even your native tongue, if it is not Dravidian, is that of an older set of those same den-dwellers.

although they were living in dens like wild boars just 1700 years ago until Hun drove them out of their dens.

I’m pretty sure they were on the move long before the Huns. Witness your national religious literature, the best of which was brought to you by those vile unkempt carnivorous savages, long before even the Huns took over your precious “civilization”.

Circuit:

Richard Lynn, Philip Ruston and various other guys are funded by anti immigration groups in the west

Heaven forbid.

I’m sure the Boasian academics you adore are not funded by any issue groups!

the data published by them is bogus

Head in sand.

and fabricated

Libel.

There books are published post circa 2000 when immigration to the western nations is at record levels from the developing world

Right, true academics don’t study what is going on in the world. Idiot.

also expose their dubious intentions of persuading the western governments to stop immigration from the so called “Third world countries.”

Heaven forbid that anyone would do that!

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), a nonprofit organization, lists the Pioneer Fund as a hate group citing the fund’s history, its funding of race and intelligence research, and its connections with allegedly racist individuals.[29][3]

An objective and honest source of information.

They also state: “Race science has potentially frightening consequences, as is evident not only from the horrors of Nazi Germany,

Right, racial differences should not be studied because more fantasy holohoaxes are going to happen.

In publication after publication, hate groups are using this “science” to legitimize racial hatred.

But its okay when our opposition uses “science” to advance their hate-whitey agenda. Hypocrisy.

In Calling Our Nation, the neo-Nazi Aryan Nations publishes a piece by a New York psychologist surveying the work of Jensen, Garrett and numerous others.

So the studies are invalid because of who chooses to quote and publish the data independently of the original authors? Huh?

IQ and the Wealth of Nations’ was not peer-reviewed before publication

If it was, you’d still criticize it.

Kumar:

“Japan is so successful” => find data to prove it

Durr, how about their booming economy?

“China is developing so quickly recently” => find data to prove it

Durr, how about their booming economy?

although they were living in dens like wild boars just 1700 years ago

Lie.

India has civilization > 4500 years

So would you care to explain who those blue and green eyed Indians are with pale skin and where they came from? Care to explain why whiteness is adored by so many Indians? Durr!

  although they were living in dens like wild boars just 1700 years ago

Lie.

Well, the Slavs really were. “Not that there’s anything wrong with that!”

So would you care to explain who those blue and green eyed Indians are with pale skin and where they came from? Care to explain why whiteness is adored by so many Indians? Durr!

Unfortunately the entrance of such genes to the Indian subcontinent predates the population movements associated with the Indo-Aryans. And there really isn’t any paleness like ours, just paleness relative to the darker pre-Dravidian genetics of the populace. Like it or not, India was “civilized” when the Aryans arrived with their wagons — meaning the Dravidians lived in walled cities, had some basic hygiene, religion & ceremony, etc. And along with civilization went caste, which wasn’t an Aryan invention; it was rather the Aryans who accommodated themselves to it. So it is quite wrong to imagine the Aryans were anything but barbarians entering a cultural area at much the same level of achievement as the Babylonian cultures. The thing is, barbarism isn’t always bad.

Well, the Slavs really were.

Err, no they weren’t.

Unfortunately the entrance of such genes to the Indian subcontinent predates the population movements associated with the Indo-Aryans

Err, what? Those genes are associated with Caucasoid - not any other race.

And along with civilization went caste, which wasn’t an Aryan invention; it was rather the Aryans who accommodated themselves to it

Right, like I’m going to believe that whopper.

Right, like I’m going to believe that whopper.

It isn’t a matter requiring your belief, rather suspension of your present belief that the Indo-Aryans “set up the caste system”, or however you might put it. All you need do is read any book out of hundreds on caste and I’m confident you’ll come away seeing the crudeness of that present belief. Is it really so hard to believe that a civilization would develop hereditary guilds and classes into which a smaller group of invaders would introduce their own social division, albeit one which looms larger in the literature than the vastly more numerous, though socially less important positions?

Err, what? Those genes are associated with Caucasoid - not any other race.

Yea, Dravidians are Caucasoid. Everything you find repugnant about Indians comes from the earlier races with whom the Dravidians mixed; and the beautiful Bollywood goddesses with their green eyes and raven hair are obviously closer to the more ancient and widespread Mediterrean race than your idealized Aryans, whose genetic imprint didn’t get past Kalmykia in its spread to the Iranian plateau and the subcontinent to any appreciable degree. You’ll just have to accept that Caucasoid doesn’t neatly reduce to whatever kind of human you fetishize but includes other races who were out & about the Eurasian continent long before the Aryan tribesmen.

Err, no they weren’t.

In fact some proto-Slavs did live in “dens”:

“Early Slavic history in eastern Europe, including the Upper Tisza Region, can be divided into two periods: the Early Slavic Period (second half of the fifth to the seventh century CE), and the Old Slavic Period (eighth and ninth centuries CE). Settlements in the Upper Tisza Region from the Early Slavic Period have as yet been insufficiently studied. The settlement patterns are assumed to be of the “open” variety, that is, falling along river valleys in which the dwellings were grouped together in “nest-like” communities (the Tur, Tisza/Tysa, Latorytsia, Uzh river valleys) or spread out as individual dwelling units (the Laborec, Ondava, Topl’a, Olsava, Torysa river valleys). There were also protected hill forts at Solotvyno, Mala Kopania, Vary, Zemplin, Mukachevo, Uzhhorod, and Sarisske Sokolovce (see Map 1). The dwellings themselves were either partially underground dugouts (8-12 sq. meters) or above-ground log-frame structures (15-20 sq. meters). They were heated with clay or, in a few cases, with stone stoves. Burial practices from the Early Slavic Period were characterized by cremation, after which the ashes were deposited in urns buried in graves or left at the place of cremation. Grave mounds (kurgans) were also known among these early Slavic settlers, the most famous of which is near the village of Cherven’ovo west of Mukachevo in Subcarpathian Rus’. Between 5 and 9 meters of earth were placed above the bodies. The material remains of the inhabitants were quite modest and included Prague-type pottery, frying pans, dishes, and distaffs.”

And some of these dwellings have been preserved; you can find them along the banks of the Dnipro and follow them up to the Samara, the same area inhabited by their Proto-Aryan ancestors. There is no shame in that, is my point. We are talking about primitive people. Kumar’s barb relies on a moral interpretation of their primitive estate as inferior to the relative luxury enjoyed by the city-dwellers of the older Dravidian culture of “Pakindia”.

VIXFLIX - the colonial era British who came to the US were by and large settlers, not criminals.  Get your facts correct.

It seems many people are missing the main point - that there is a distribution of IQs among groups and thus the average does not apply to each and every individual.

From my personal observations through out college, graduate school and work it seems obvious that generalizations can be made.  Whites, Indians, Jews and Orientals are brighter and harder working than blacks and non-white Hispanics.  Hispanics are an interesting group to observe because they are more of a cultural grouping than a racial or ethinic grouping.  Hispanics of European decent, in my experience, are brighter than non-white Hispanics.  It would be interesting to see a statistical break down of Hispanics by actual racial/ethnic group and the IQs, crime rates and illegitimatacy rates associated with those ethinic groups.  Remember, there are blacks, whites, chinese, amerinds and mixed race people all lumped together under the Hispanic label.

I think the main issue, however, should not be who is smarter but the survival of our people (Europeans).  We are entitled to Europe as the indigineous people of Europe.  And quite frankly we are entitled to those countries our people built such as the US, Canada and Australia.  I do not want China, or India or Africa for my people and the Latin Americans, Chinese, Indians and Africans should not expect to take our lands.  We can trade, share technology and get along while living in our own homelands with our own languages and cultures.

Basing anything about ancient civilizations is dubious at best. What if the Harappan site was never found? There are lots of archaeological sites still buried around the world. There are still many human remains around the world which remain uncovered.
The requirements of an industrial society are very different from that of a medieval society.

The IQ research is not bullshit. They are based on facts. Deal with it.
North East Asians are on top, closely followed by Europeans, followed by the brown masses followed by blacks at the bottom. Deal with it.

Circuit,
read this
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/color_of_meritocracy.htm

It shows how IQ studies successfully predicted how each ethnic group would perform in a police test. The academic left will obviously oppose any study which rightfully shows differences between human groups. Your point is pointless. THE SPLC is a marxist organisation.

If these studies would have shown that you curry monkeys perform well, you would not have questioned their validity. You are pissed because you curry monkeys do not measure up to some races especially East Asians.

ethanallen,

You claim East Asians have no good computer programmers. then explain this
http://acm.baylor.edu/Past/Default.htm

In 2005, Shanghai Jiao Tong University became world champions
http://acm.baylor.edu/Past/icpc2005/Finals/Standings.html
The famed fart called the IITs ranked 29th and many IITs did not rank at all.

For all those who question the validity of Wealth and IQ of Nations;

“Lynn has shown that IQ results correlate with various international student assessments in the range of .81-.89. Well, Rindermann’s aggregation of those assessments correlates with IQ scores at exactly the middle of that range.

Rindermann also presents his estimates with adjustments (five points subtracted from L&V;estimates for countries without any actual data, age and participation rate adjustments for international student assessments). For the same 74 countries where assessment results are available, the correlation with L&V;is a marginally stronger .86.”
http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2008/10/international-student-assessments.html

.86 is a powerful correlation. If anyone has the time later today you can look through PISA statistics online. Notice that they tend to decline as we move into the middle east. In fact Turkey has lower scores then Russia, despite the fact that the average life expectancy for ethnic Russians is somewhere in the fifties-lower by ten years in relation to Turkey.

“IQ and the Wealth of Nations’ was not peer-reviewed before publication but was published by a publisher of academic literature. Peer reviewed articles have used the IQ scores presented in the book and some have also commented on the claims in the book.”

Part of the reason why he got the grants from the Pioneer Fund instead of elsewhere is simply because no one would ever allow such information to leak out. PC fear-mongers have created an awful situation by 1. Not being honest about what we already knew about race 2. Further suppressing new research into race. 3 Trying to destroy White demographic hegemony.

Furthermore

Bamshad’s team found that Y chromosomes from the Brahmin and Kshatriya closely resembled European Y chromosomes rather than Asian Y chromosomes. The Y chromosomes from the lower castes bore more similarities to the Asian Y chromosome. The mitochondrial DNA showed the same pattern.

Analysis of the paternally transmitted Y chromosome among Indians in general indicated that the Y chromosome had a more European flavor. Maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA among Indians is more Asian than European. This suggests that the Europeans who entered India were predominantly male.
http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/05_01/Indo-European.shtml

Geneticist Lynn Jorde of the University of Utah said that there was a group of males with European affinities who were largely responsible for this invasion 3,000 or 4,000 years ago. If the women were with the invaders, he said, the evidence should be seen in the mitochondria genes, but it is not evident.

The invaders apparently shoved the local men aside, took their women and set up the rigid caste system that exists today in India. Their descendants are still the elite within Hindu society. Large numbers of Indians have the same Y-chromosomes of the East Europeans closely related to today’s Slavs.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2590678

Art,

    I think Mexico/ Brazil and India have some parallels in race formation. In Mexico, Whites (mostly Spaniards) married Native American (and in some cases black) women to create a mestizo nation. The elite (about 12 %) are a mix of White and Native too but are Whiter and smarter. Here too just like the Aryans of India, a handful of Spanish Conquistador conquered an earlier civilization like the Aztecs and created a new civilization based on both the old and new. Something of the sort must have happened in India. I would say these elites are the Brahmins and Kshatriyas of Mexico. In Brazil too you see the White elite on top, with mixed masses in between and blacks at the bottom. The White elites are the Brahmins and Kshatriyas of Brazil, the brown masses are the middle castes while the Blacks are the Shudras of Brazil. What happened in Latin America 400 years ago, happened in South Asia 4000 years ago.

IQ test can easily be manipulated and the sample of population selected to conduct the test is not representative of the whole population. There are several European countries which are poor like Hungary and Romania, and China is a picture of gross poverty and lowest wages in the world. Instead on relying on average IQ of a country which is unreliable it is much better to test individuals. Average IQ of many white countries are high but still millions of people lives on crumbs(dole) provided by state, 36 millions on food assistance in the US alone, the child poverty is the worst in UK, 90% of whites retire poor, due to poor financial planning, high IQ does no t translate into High wealth. The socio economic structure, political stability, transparency, accountability, work culture, and general attitude of people to reward achievers in the society can lead to more wealth. Person could be of high IQ but what if he or she does not want to put effort to go for higher education or hard work, instead have a laidback attitude and spend more time in leisure activties and shuns investment in stocks and real estate.

The Richard lynn and Rushton’s data are dubious without any credibility and authenticity and based on observation, manipulation of data and assumptions without any real solid state research, thats why it is written off and not taken seriously by any corporations, governments or universities. Immigration from India to the western world is at record levels as India is becoming more prosperous growing at 7 to 8 % GDP per annum since last two decades and more people can afford to study overseas. It is Indian education system and their fluency in English language which is giving India more leverage than Chinese or Japanese to be more successful in the west, all you need is a attitude to succeed. And all IQ types have jobs and role to play, if not NASA, Dell or Microsoft there are several garage startups and venture capitalists to begin with.

Peopling of the World:
  http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/

Peopling of Inida:
    http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/hpg/cesmg/peopling.html